Olympic Wrap Up Article

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

I've said it before... I'll say it again:

Electric Singlestick.

No whipover.
Contact strip only on the edges and tip of the weapon.
Slower tempo due to weight of weapon leading to clearer (and more viewer friendly) action.

Now someone just needs to make one.

singlesticks would be cool.

[sabreur]

This goes on and on....

My perspective.

1. Somewhat like screaming, we sabreurs have always hit with the flat, at least as long as I've been fencing. I was trained in 1978 to roll a chest or belly cut and keep a loose hand while doing so. You hit with the flat because, among other things, you hurt the other guy if you make these cuts with the edge. You do see some fly-fishing at lower levels, but not by good fencers (among other things, people who whack with the flat hurt their opponents, and there is a self-correcting mechanism at work--certainly at my salle). I recently had a brief, but serious discussion with a young man who had taken to whacking at the bell with the flat--the gist was, "If you continue to do that, I'll take off your head." And Quart, before you jump in, I know there is a big difference between a rolled chest or belly cut, and an intentional whack with the flat.

2. Quart is somewhat right, however, that a touch that would have been called flat or laid on now makes the light go off, and this is bad. On the other hand, I would say that about 99% of contemporary sabre actions are not laid on, but are made with as much or more force as they were in the steam days. In fact, they are generally made with more force, because people ARE trying to bash through weak parries. This also results in some whipovers being called good, although the number has been greatly reduced by the S2000 blades.

3. To parry in sabre now, you really have to PARRY. You can't just meet the blade, you have to stop it. Parries have to be considerably wider than they used to be. You can see this in the Olympic fencing--hand position in terce in particular is now turned out more than it used to be, and the hand is further outside the body and arm.

4. Quinte is the hardest parry to take successfully--in my analysis of the US v. Russia match, I only saw one successful quinte (by Ivan Lee, in the first touch I discussed).

5. Most of the successful parries are taken moving forward, rather than with a traditional retreat. Generally they are parries of counter-attacks. They also tend to be made further down the opponent's blade--you block the forte, and the whipover is BEHIND you.

6. IMNSHO, the best way to increase the amount of blade play in sabre would be to change the judging of attacks through the blade, and go back to calling good blade contact a parry, even if the light goes on. The correct call should be attack-parried, riposte, remise. The new lock-out timing in sabre, unfortunately, works in exactly the opposite direction.

7. I've got a guy on my squad now who used to fence sabre in the steam days, and is just starting again. He's a lot of fun to fence, because his hand is substantially lighter than most people who have been training with electrics. We have very nice parry-counter parry exchanges. Of course, he's also constantly victimized by people who hit harder to bash through the parry. In particular, it is easy to hit him on the forearm, because he takes an old school terce.

8. There is a lot of blade work in modern sabre--particularly on defense, people are constantly searching for the blade. It just isn't successful, generally--certainly not nearly as successful as a parry with distance. And obviously, the attempt is more a pris de fer than a traditional parry.

9. Again, I don't think that electric scoring has made sabre less than it was. It has made it a more honest game. Many legitimate touches were not recognized by side judges. In my experience, the number of touches resulting from whipovers and laid-on blades is far fewer than the number of valid touches that were not recognized in steam sabre.

10. As far as further stiffening of the blade--I don't think it would be a good idea. I know at least one woman who had her collarbone broken by a ham-handed sabreur with an S2000 blade. Any further stiffening of the blade would make for a lot more injuries, and give ax murderers an overwhelming advantage. Point attacks could become, literally, fatal. Also, a significantly heavier weapon would not be historically correct--there is a post on the weight of 19th C fencing sabres in the classical fencing area--they evidently weighed in at slightly over 500 grams, which is not significantly heavier than modern fencing sabres. I had guessed that my 19th C weapons were around 750 grams, but I didn't actually weigh them. For comparison, the maximum weight for a modern fencing sabre is 500 grams, but most are around 300-350 grams.

My $.02.

MR

[Robert (2)]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Contact strip only on the edges and tip of the weapon.

This could be done with present sabres. In fact why not go further and only allow the top half of the front edge to register. Suddenly the distance opens up to allow the hit to be delivered with the foible and because it is the foible about to strike your head (and not your oponents guard) you have a realistic shot at a parry.

Robert

P.S Or simpler. Why not alter the freeze out on the box timings. At the moment there is a momentary freeze on the lights after a contact with the guard. The FIE could measure the length of time it takes to riposte and simply freeze the box for that length of time preventing the remise from bringing the attackers light on first.

[P00Man]

but what about a slow riposte?

the box still works fine with a really fast riposte, the problem arises with a slow riposte, where the riposter TECHNICALLY has the right of way, but the immediate counter-attack into his attack puts the counter-attacker's light on and locks the box, blocking out the slow, but immediate AND continuous riposte.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Robert (2)

This could be done with present sabres. In fact why not go further and only allow the top half of the front edge to register. Suddenly the distance opens up to allow the hit to be delivered with the foible and because it is the foible about to strike your head (and not your oponents guard) you have a realistic shot at a parry.

Robert

P.S Or simpler. Why not alter the freeze out on the box timings. At the moment there is a momentary freeze on the lights after a contact with the guard. The FIE could measure the length of time it takes to riposte and simply freeze the box for that length of time preventing the remise from bringing the attackers light on first.

As I said, I don't think hitting with the flat is a real problem--others do though.

The box freezes both sides when contact with the blade is made (see page 107 of the USFA translation of the rules). One of the armorers can probably comment more completely. But I was thinking that a longer freeze out time might do away with the continuing whipover problem and make the parry more of a weapon.

Currently, the box will register the hit if the blade and the lame are hit in 0-4 milliseconds. The box will block the touch if the blades are in contact and the lame is hit from 4-15 milliseconds. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if the blocking time was doubled, to 30 milliseconds. This is still only .03 seconds, and I don't think it would result in many valid touches being disallowed--in fact, I don't think it would result in any valid touches being disallowed.

Actually, it would be worth a test to see how long the block-out time could be, without affecting valid ripostes. I don't know what technical issues would be involved in changing the block-out timing, but I know the time was increased in the relatively recent past. Another increase could make a big difference in the number of valid parries.

Cheers, MR

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by sabreur

9. Again, I don't think that electric scoring has made sabre less than it was. It has made it a more honest game. Many legitimate touches were not recognized by side judges. In my experience, the number of touches resulting from whipovers and laid-on blades is far fewer than the number of valid touches that were not recognized in steam sabre.

To be sure, which is why ( as I remember it ) we hit with more force in the old days: the judges had to be able to hear the "pop" of blade hitting canvas, or oftentime the hit didn't register with them at all. That's why I had to give up stop-cuts to the arm, no one ever saw them, and a taut sleeve yielded less sound than duck over a torso...

Of course, especially at higher levels, the judges were all but ciphers: the director's polling was usually pretty perfunctory, and unless he was overruled or needed "cover" for his own uncertainty on a touch it scarcely mattered whether the judges saw correctly or not.

[sabreman]

IMHO Rogers is not as athletic Lee and Smart. Just the way I see it.

I remember watching Mindergarsov and Krienko making numerous great one light parry four repostes. Since it is a bigger risk why not award 2 touches? It would be like a 3 pointer in bball.

[sabreman]

Inq, Nazlymov Sr. said the same thing. He said no reason to use much force with electics sabre. Just make the light go off. Shouldn't waste the energy.