New foil and sabre timings

[mike morgan]

This announcement by the British Fencing Association was posted today on the British Fencing Forum. Very interesting. Upon careful reading it raises lots of questions as how it will--can be--effectively implemented in the UK. Wonder if and when the USFA will announce a formal decision on foil and sabre timings?

New timings at Foil and Sabre

This year the FIE announced new timings for Foil and Sabre boxes, provisional for this season (2004/05) but very likely to be mandatory in the following season.

British Fencing, after consulting the Foil and Sabre Committees, has decided that for the Season 2004/2005, after October 1st 2004:

1) Under the FIE Rules all A Grades and Satellite Events will be run under the new timings.
2) All British Championships will be run under the new timings except that the BYCs will depend on availability of equipment.
3) All Opens and Registered Events can be run using either the old or the new timings but it must be the same for all fencers and information published in the reglements and at the event.

Assuming the FIE decide to make it a permanent change then from September 1st 2005 all Open and Registered Events WILL BE requested to use the new timings but any event still using the old timings must make this clear on the entry forms. NIF points will only be earned at events using the new timings.

[CvilleFencer]

Our Division just sent all our boxes in for tune ups. I really hope the USFA waits until next year for this nonsense. With any luck it will have blown over by then!

[dekko]

isn't it this kind of thinking that led to tags on the back of some foil lames?

nice.

[CvilleFencer]

Huh? Every lame has a tag on it somewhere and all I have ever seen have it on the back. Also I guess I don't see what it has to do with foil/saber timing... Maybe I am having a slow day...
Sorry if I am being dense...

[dekko]

a few years ago at least one equipment company, Frace Lame, made a bunch of foil lames with a tag on the back of the neck exactly like what one would see on a sabre lame. There was talk about making a foil specific mask that would have the bib be target and the foil fencer would clip the mask to the lame much the same way sabre fencers do.

That rule never happened and every now and then a fencer wears one of these lames and gets a laugh from people who have been around a while who know why the tag is there.

[CvilleFencer]

Gotcha. I was not saying that we had sent our boxes in for the new timing changes, just that they went in for their yearly tuneups already and it would be a pain have to send them back again if the USFA decides to fast track the changes. I could see them doing it for the NAC and NAT events in the interest of keeping things on a level playing field for our top 0.3% fencers who may compete under the new timings.

[mike morgan]

Below are some wry and trenchant comments from UK fencers regarding the new BFA timing changes:

"....So everything from Oct 1 2004 could have the new timings? Bit of a disadvantage to anyone who has never practiced with them surely? Sounds like pretty short notice to me."

"Blimey again... "All Opens and Registered Events can be run using either the old or the new timings but it must be the same for all fencers and information published in the reglements and at the event. " ...lovely! If anybody involved in running (and also supplying the equipment for) Leicester, Welsh, Slough and Birmingham has a clue what they intend to do, it would be great to know!!"


"It's not really a surprise, though, since it has been known for quite some months that cadet and junior A-grades and Worlds will be run using the new timings. I think that most people just assumed that the British Cadets and Juniors would use the new timings. The surprise for me is the "either/or" for the seniors. I can see why they have done it, but it is a little disturbing to not know what timings a specific large open will use until you turn up... I was assuming that they would probably use an "everyone switch to new timings as of 1st Jan" approach..."

[CarlKnoch]

The boxes have the timing changes installed for our Div. I've checked it out and think that it's a world of difference when fencing with them.
C

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Gotcha. I was not saying that we had sent our boxes in for the new timing changes, just that they went in for their yearly tuneups already and it would be a pain have to send them back again if the USFA decides to fast track the changes. I could see them doing it for the NAC and NAT events in the interest of keeping things on a level playing field for our top 0.3% fencers who may compete under the new timings.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by CarlKnoch

The boxes have the timing changes installed for our Div. I've checked it out and think that it's a world of difference when fencing with them.

Woo hoo! I'm looking forward to the changes. Though I have no direct experience with them yet, I'm theorizing that the net result will be cleaned-up technique. That would be an interesting poll:

The new box-timings for foil will:
( ) Make foil into a remise-driven jab fest
( ) Make foil into an ultra-precise technique-driven weapon
( ) Somewhere inbetween

[achilleus]

I'm more interested in the unexpected changes that will surface in a couple of years.

I mean, historically, every time the equipment of fencing has changed, it's brought up some unexpected side effects.

For example:

The electric apparatus and weapon
meant to register touches in an unbiased manner-
Also allows the much discussed flick to register and alters the game to much simpler actions in the immediate years following
In sabre - whipovers, and now the whole blade is valid as opposed to the single edge and the top third of the back

The FIE Blades
Safety -
Caused tendenitous and arm injuries for the next few years as fencers were unaccustomed to the weight
Slowed the actions down for a short while as well

The Mask (and indeed safety equipment in general)-
Protect the fencer and allow them to practice 'real' dueling actions safely
Allowed fencers to turn art into a sport for fun and entertainment

[keith]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

The new box-timings for foil will:
( ) Make foil into a remise-driven jab fest
( ) Make foil into an ultra-precise technique-driven weapon
( ) Somewhere inbetween

so here is one opinion;

the longer timing for the hit may bring the foil closer to the old steam days - hits showing penetration rather than just brushing the target. Hours of practice on the finger work to fix the point -oh joy.

The lock out time is probably not going to make a huge difference - unless it affects the indirect riposte into a different line (sixte parry, riposte in octave for example) which I doubt it will.

The question is whether the timing change is really going to kill the flick at the elite level - or just change how the action is performed - coaches may well simply be able to train their fencers to fix the point more at the end of the flick.

If the flick is killed then it is going to have as much of an effect on defense as the attack. At the moment about the only way to deal with a flick riposte is to remise hard and hope to avoid the riposte - a remise or redouble is a better bet than an attempt to take a counter. Who knows maybe at the next olympics we will see the counter riposte return; along with complex compound attacks - I'm going all misty eyed.

[mrbiggs]

I'm really happy about this, because now you Brits can tell us how the new timings work out on different levels of fencing, as they become standard.

[bjacobs]

I've spoken to some people at Yury Gelman's summer camp who just tried out the new sabre timing. They were really unhappy with how close things are cut: many actions that used to be clear parry ripostes were now successful, one light remises, and beat attacks often failed due to a one light touch by the other person which I suppose would now have to be called an attack in preparation.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by bjacobs

I've spoken to some people at Yury Gelman's summer camp who just tried out the new sabre timing. They were really unhappy with how close things are cut: many actions that used to be clear parry ripostes were now successful, one light remises, and beat attacks often failed due to a one light touch by the other person which I suppose would now have to be called an attack in preparation.

This is what I am really afraid of. The new lock-out times will drive sabre even further into the "I can attack quicker than you can" direction, and penalize bladework even further. And the director won't have to parse the action--"One light, touch right (or left, as the case may be....).

MR

[keith]

Originally Posted by sabreur

This is what I am really afraid of. The new lock-out times will drive sabre even further into the "I can attack quicker than you can" direction, and penalize bladework even further. And the director won't have to parse the action--"One light, touch right (or left, as the case may be....).

MR

the beginning of the end of RoW in sabre?

[Rolls]

Huh? I'm confused where in the parry-riposte or beat-attack does your opponent get a chance to hit you? If he does, then you WERE in prep.

The times for sabre really don't change that much anyway.

Rolls.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Rolls

Huh? I'm confused where in the parry-riposte or beat-attack does your opponent get a chance to hit you? If he does, then you WERE in prep.

The times for sabre really don't change that much anyway.

Rolls.

well RoW is based on fencing time (not actual milli seconds) so the remise/counter attack can arrive (long) before the beat attack or riposte and still be out of time.

You are only in prep if you pause and break time after the beat or parry.

...consider the difference between the sixte-parry-riposte action in foil and epee. Once the lockout starts to interfere with the simple riposte vs remise you are beginning to get rid of RoW.

[Rolls]

Originally Posted by keith

well RoW is based on fencing time (not actual milli seconds) so the remise/counter attack can arrive (long) before the beat attack or riposte and still be out of time.

I know that, but I think what the FIE is saying is that there is an upper limit on how long your fencing tempo can last(in realtime not fencing time). In this case, it's the new lockout time. So, you can only slow down your tempo so much before your opponent's faster tempo takes precedence (or RoW).

But it doesn't change the fact that a good parry/riposte should land without you getting touched. So, the lockout time shouldn't have any effect. Same with a beat/attack. I say shouldn't because I know it's not always the case.

Rolls.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Rolls

But it doesn't change the fact that a good parry/riposte should land without you getting touched. So, the lockout time shouldn't have any effect. Same with a beat/attack. I say shouldn't because I know it's not always the case.

Rolls.

Not always? I'd say that it's rarely the case, based on my experience, unless you make such strong actions on the blade that your opponent's arm is forced aside or unless your opponent is trying to parry your riposte or parry your beat-attack rather than remise into it.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Rolls

But it doesn't change the fact that a good parry/riposte should land without you getting touched. So, the lockout time shouldn't have any effect. Same with a beat/attack. I say shouldn't because I know it's not always the case.

Rolls.

Agreed - I haven't used or seen the new timings in use. Like most everyone else I am guessing off second hand reports. The question is whether the new lockout timing is going to affect who can make the riposte fast enough - against lower level fencers the remise may well be the stroke of choice; no need for second intention counter ripostes.

The odd thing is that the two changes in box timing seem to be pulling in opposite directions - eliminating the flick to try and bring back more classical blade/point work but shortening the lockout is likely to help 'modern' explosive simple attacks (and the remise thereof).