View Poll Results: Which of these actions do you find UNsportsmanlike?

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  • Screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory by both fencers after nigh every action.

    80 31.75%
  • Doing any of the above or any other POST-TOUCH-ACTION with the INTENT to influence the ref.

    102 40.48%
  • Throwing tantrums, throwing one's mask, taking one's mask off, etc in rage.

    200 79.37%
  • Failing to shake hands, failing to salute

    225 89.29%
  • Taunting one's opponent before, during or after a bout.

    193 76.59%
  • Celebrating visibly/audibly after almost every hit one makes.

    62 24.60%
  • Performing 'kiai' type screams during an action ("Et La!").

    31 12.30%
  • Indicating that one has been touched.

    7 2.78%
  • Indicating WHERE one has been touched.

    10 3.97%
  • Celebrations which would not be acceptable in public (mooning, swearing, flashing, etc..)

    208 82.54%
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Thread: What actions do you find UNsportsmanlike? - the corollary poll

  1. #1
    Senior Member cfaustus's Avatar
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    What actions do you find UNsportsmanlike? - the corollary poll

    Ok,

    as promised, here is the corollary to my previous poll. Through the discussions presented in my previous poll, people seemed split on many of the actions that were discussed. Many suggested that the sense of honor as manifested in sportmanlike behavior had changed. Let's see if we can't narrow down a little more closely where this sense currently lies.

    I realize that not all actions are offered in the poll. I simply tried to cull the most talked about. Since few of you had trouble having your name posted with your vote, I have decided to have one's name's attached on this poll as well. Hopefully, it may aid in future discussions to help people understand where others are coming from.

    Thank you for your input.
    Last edited by cfaustus; 08-25-2004 at 12:07 PM.
    "Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un m˙sico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga

    "If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes."

  2. #2
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    not a poll (yet)
    Last edited by noodle; 08-25-2004 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member whtouche's Avatar
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    Oh my god.
    Seek therapy. You are obsessed. It's not healthy.
    "Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gun powder + cat in a box"
    -Albert Einstein, in a letter to Erwin Schr÷dinger

  4. #4
    Member Scott Allen Abf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle
    not a poll (yet)

    In lieu of a poll, some suggestions:

    Sort of covered in poll:
    - Trash talking
    - Arguing with the director or going through melodramatics when you disagree with a call. It happens, live with it.

    Here's one I don't know how to term, and people do it, but I find it unsportsmanlike (personally):

    Feigning injury, or equipment failure, or one of a dozen other ways to stop the flow of the bout when you know you are losing and you want to get some time to readjust mentally. We saw this from Xue Tan while she fenced Sada Jacobson, IMHO. And it got her a Silver.

    What is particularly loathsome is that there are coaches the teach these, what I will charitably call, 'techniques'
    Last edited by Scott Allen Abf; 08-25-2004 at 12:10 PM.
    Scott Allen Abfalter
    Knight Blades Fencing
    Cocoa, FL

  5. #5
    Senior Member edew's Avatar
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    Scott, how can you call those unsportsmanlike? They're certainly within rules and used by the best of us (er...them). I would disagree with faking an injury, and if the medical expert determines it's a fake, should immediately black card the person. But futzing around with equipment and such? Seems like it's the right thing to do.

    Remember in the original Rocky? Rocky gets knocked down and what does Mickey say to him? "Stay down! Stay down!" Take the time out that's within reason.

    Note that in order to follow through with the fake, one's mind has to wander a bit as well. So it's not all just a negative to the opponent.
    =)=///

  6. #6
    Senior Member achilleus's Avatar
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    So, let me get this straight:

    If I am upset at losing, or a bad call, or just had because, and I take my mask of with rage, it's the equivalent of throwing my mask or throwing a tantrum?

    Just curious...
    We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
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  7. #7
    Senior Member whtouche's Avatar
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    I find it rediculous you wouldnt include both "all" and "none" of the above options.
    Most of these polls you post seem designed to trap people into admitting they share your warped point of view.
    "Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gun powder + cat in a box"
    -Albert Einstein, in a letter to Erwin Schr÷dinger

  8. #8
    Member Scott Allen Abf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edew
    Scott, how can you call those unsportsmanlike? They're certainly within rules and used by the best of us (er...them). I would disagree with faking an injury, and if the medical expert determines it's a fake, should immediately black card the person. But futzing around with equipment and such? Seems like it's the right thing to do.

    Remember in the original Rocky? Rocky gets knocked down and what does Mickey say to him? "Stay down! Stay down!" Take the time out that's within reason.

    Note that in order to follow through with the fake, one's mind has to wander a bit as well. So it's not all just a negative to the opponent.
    That's exactly the gist of what I am saying, though. They are actions that are within the letter of the law, but not really the spirit of the law. If your grip is loose, you can get another weapon. If it is not loose, and you are doing it merely to collect yourself then you are ABUSING the intent of the rules to allow you to exchange out the defective weapon.
    Scott Allen Abfalter
    Knight Blades Fencing
    Cocoa, FL

  9. #9
    Member Scott Allen Abf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whtouche
    I find it rediculous you wouldnt include both "all" and "none" of the above options.
    Most of these polls you post seem designed to trap people into admitting they share your warped point of view.
    I notice that the CNN.com quickvote polls are often like that; many times neither choice is appropriate for me.
    Scott Allen Abfalter
    Knight Blades Fencing
    Cocoa, FL

  10. #10
    Senior Member cfaustus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whtouche
    I find it rediculous you wouldnt include both "all" and "none" of the above options.
    Most of these polls you post seem designed to trap people into admitting they share your warped point of view.
    I wanted to add more options but the poll creation tool limited me to 10... if you find them all ok (i.e. would vote 'none' ) then don't vote. If however, you think all are unsportsmanlike, check all of them... multiple selections are ok on this poll.
    "Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un m˙sico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga

    "If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes."

  11. #11
    Senior Member Wafath's Avatar
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    Failing to salute/shake hands? Depends on the reason for the failure. Newbie so dazed that they forget and have to be politely reminded by director/teammate? Sportsmanlike. Angry fencer who refuses to after being reminded? Unsportsmanlike. Happy american sabre fencer who just won the gold medal and had to be reminded, but went and did it the moment she realized she forgot? Sportsmanlike.

    W

  12. #12
    Posting Hound oiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edew
    I would disagree with faking an injury, and if the medical expert determines it's a fake, should immediately black card the person.
    Uhm, or perhaps the specifically-mentioned-in-the-rules "unjustified claim of injury" for a red card? I wouldn't go to unsportsmanlike black card on this one given that there's a more directly applicable rule on the books.

    -B :)
    "Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

  13. #13
    Posting Hound oiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wafath
    Happy american sabre fencer who just won the gold medal and had to be reminded, but went and did it the moment she realized she forgot? Sportsmanlike.
    I could swear I remember seeing her salute all around while still on the piste before running over to the referee who made her salute again. I'll have to remember to pay more attention next time I watch the tape, but I remember thinking it was strange at the time that the referee was requiring her to resalute.

    -B :)
    "Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

  14. #14
    Member CsmaCD's Avatar
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    Musings...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Allen Abf
    ...If your grip is loose, you can get another weapon. If it is not loose, and you are doing it merely to collect yourself then you are ABUSING the intent of the rules to allow you to exchange out the defective weapon.
    I think a minor rule change (or change of interpretation) could remedy this situation. All "defective" claims must be verified by the bout President or Armourer. False claims result in a red/black card. Verified claims result in weapon confiscation. (who would want to use a defective weapon?!) Maybe even throw in that weapon claims may only be made after "halt", but that could lead to a fencer not calling a defective weapon and continuing to fence in a dangerous situation (cracked blade, etc).

    Essentially, eliminate the fencer's ability to stop the bout for weapon issues without penalty. Leave bout interruptions to the President and the hoards of raving fans.

    Medical issues are a much more difficult issue. Most events don't have a dedicated medical "official" and must rely on the fencer's self-examination. The time limit helps, but doesn't eliminate, this vector.

    I really don't want to get bogged down in new rules- there may be other rules , such as delay of bout, that can discourage false weapon/equipment/medical claims. Directors, however, should ask to inspect weapons when someone makes a claim.

  15. #15
    Senior Member darius's Avatar
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    That's exactly the gist of what I am saying, though. They are actions that are within the letter of the law, but not really the spirit of the law. If your grip is loose, you can get another weapon. If it is not loose, and you are doing it merely to collect yourself then you are ABUSING the intent of the rules to allow you to exchange out the defective weapon.
    The problem is, there are a million shades of gray there. For example:
    - Maybe my other weapon is a little flickier, and I've been hitting flat. Or there's something little; a funky bend, or the handle is a little newer, and I'm having trouble holding onto it. In this case, I want to change weapons.
    - Psychological quirk. Sometimes I get a perceived advantage from changing to a dry t-shirt if I've fenced poorly in pools, and always keep a few extras in my bag. That feeling of "change" could easily apply to a weapon.
    - Maybe my weapon's been loose for a while, but as long as I'm getting touches, I don't really care. Is it wrong to continue fencing and hope you can finish the bout with that weapon, and then decide to switch if my opponent starts scoring?

    Neither of these cases have anything to do with my opponent, I'm just looking to give myself the best playing field possible to win on. You could argue "unsportsmanlike" for either of these if you really wanted to, but it's a pretty fine (and personal) line. Of course, I *could* just be trying to disrupt my opponent's rhythm. That's why one usually cannot enforce the spirit of a rule; only the letter -- it's very hard to determine intent.

    And bad things might happen if refs are forced to make that determination. It's an extreme example, but remember the ref who thought one of his fencers was stalling, didn't let the kid tie his shoes, and on the next phrase, the kid tore his achilles?

    Ultimately, if you go on a streak, and your opponent chooses to tactically fix their hair, you need to be prepared to deal with that, because it's allowed in the letter of the rules. If you get all uppitty about that happening, you're playing right into the psychological game, and disrupting your concentration from the fencing.

    darius

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilleus
    So, let me get this straight:

    If I am upset at losing, or a bad call, or just had because, and I take my mask of with rage, it's the equivalent of throwing my mask or throwing a tantrum?

    Just curious...
    good point....I agree that those should be seperated.

    I also wondered what he meant by:

    Indicating that one has been touched.
    and
    Indicating WHERE one has been touched.

    Do you mean on yourself?
    How can that be POOR sportsmanship?

    That's the way it ought to be. We shouldn't even need electric equipment. We all be honorable enoght to say "you hit me right here."

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by whtouche
    I find it rediculous you wouldnt include both "all" and "none" of the above options.
    Most of these polls you post seem designed to trap people into admitting they share your warped point of view.
    Huh?
    if you think they are all poor sportsmanlike you just check all of them ....If you think none are unsportsmanlike, choose none of them.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wafath
    Failing to salute/shake hands? Depends on the reason for the failure. Newbie so dazed that they forget and have to be politely reminded by director/teammate? Sportsmanlike. Angry fencer who refuses to after being reminded? Unsportsmanlike. Happy american sabre fencer who just won the gold medal and had to be reminded, but went and did it the moment she realized she forgot? Sportsmanlike.

    W
    Of course.
    And the rules do not say "failing to remember to salute," they say "refusing to salute."

    Refusing to salute or shake hands is unsportsmanlike. Forgetting to, but then cheerfully doing so when reminded : sportsmanlike.

  19. #19
    Senior Member darius's Avatar
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    I think a minor rule change (or change of interpretation) could remedy this situation. All "defective" claims must be verified by the bout President or Armourer. False claims result in a red/black card. Verified claims result in weapon confiscation. (who would want to use a defective weapon?!)
    Oh no! What about the phantom off-target on my riposte? I can't seem to replicate it by futzing with my foil, but I might not wait around to find out, especially if it's a close bout.

    Refs are not necessarily competent armorers (and some are downright destructive), and calling technicians to strip every time somebody wants to switch would be an amazing waste of manpower. You think NACs are slow now?!?

    Your weapon gets confiscated no matter what -- if a fencer on my strip decides to switch weapons, I'm going to take the old one from them. So right there is the impetus not to switch unless necessary; what happens if fencer X has his required 2 weapons, he switches for a tactical timeout, and then his 2nd weapon breaks? Then he's in trouble...

    Essentially, eliminate the fencer's ability to stop the bout for weapon issues without penalty. Leave bout interruptions to the President and the hoards of raving fans.
    Most fencers only delay the bout (whether it's walking the strip, tying shoes, fixing hair, switching weapons) after a "halt". Generally after a touch has been scored against them. You want to preserve the fencer's ability to stop the bout, because of all sorts of reasons -- if I'm worried about getting a card, maybe I *won't* be so sportsmanlike as to point out the spilled Gatorade that my opponent is about to retreat over...

    darius

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by whtouche
    I find it rediculous you wouldnt include both "all" and "none" of the above options.
    Most of these polls you post seem designed to trap people into admitting they share your warped point of view.

    I can not see any bias in this poll. I agree that a couple questions could be worded differently, because they are confusing (or over inclusive.) but they do not seem biased.

    this one for example:
    "Screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory by both fencers after nigh every action."

    Seems like a valid question. Either you think that is good sportsmanship, or you think it is bad sportsmanship. How would you ask that in a way that you would deem more fair?

    I have a feeling that you are protesting to this poll because you are being told that you are a poor sport. (just guessing....having never seen you fence)

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