What actions do you find UNsportsmanlike? - the corollary poll

[Peach]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

I can not see any bias in this poll. I agree that a couple questions could be worded differently, because they are confusing (or over inclusive.) but they do not seem biased.

this one for example:
"Screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory by both fencers after nigh every action."

Seems like a valid question. Either you think that is good sportsmanship, or you think it is bad sportsmanship. How would you ask that in a way that you would deem more fair?

I have a feeling that you are protesting to this poll because you are being told that you are a poor sport. (just guessing....having never seen you fence)

Ad hominem assertions about those who disagree with the construction of the poll do not prove the point.

I can see considerable bias in the poll. For instance including "screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory" puts screaming and pumping into the categories of "claiming" which is a word with affective content, and a denotation of asserting the right to a disputable outcome. The choice of the word "screaming" is pejorative; there are a number of synonyms which have a different flavor, for instance "yelling" "calling out," "speaking loudly," or "hollering like a loony." Likewise, the phrase "nigh every action" has a folksy, amusingly retro flavor to it which somehow evokes a disapproving maiden aunt to me, or a droll New Englander leaning over a fence and commenting on the behavior of the tourists. Phrasing survey questions so that they are not loaded toward the surveyer's point of view is a complex process, and there is a reason that in most social science surveys the same question is often asked over and over again with different phrases. This one really does not try to be objective. The fact that you do not see any bias in it suggests that you assume others have the same labels and denotations for the labeled actions that you do. I find the survey almost impossible to answer in any meaningful way, myself.

[swordsen]

Throwing ones mask. Unsportsman like. Taking it off. Not.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by swordsen

Throwing ones mask. Unsportsman like. Taking it off. Not.

How about taking it off swiftly so that it falls out of your fingers inadvertently? How about dropping it with a tetch too much hauteur? And just how much is a tetch, anyway? How about taking off your mask, shaking hands, saluting, unhooking, going outside into the hall and flinging your mask like a bowling ball?

[achilleus]

People,

Almost all polls are biased in some way.

And let's get real. It's a semi-anonymous internet poll of a fencing chat board.

I doubt Craig ever thought the polling option would be used and expected to return conclusive, hard hitting results.

I mean everytime I actually vote on other websites, the polling data usually comes with a disclaimer about how it actually means squat.

So, why are we arguing about the validity of this poll? It's worthless in terms of conclusive data, but then again so are most internet polls.

Let's accept that and move on...

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Peach

How about taking it off swiftly so that it falls out of your fingers inadvertently? How about dropping it with a tetch too much hauteur? And just how much is a tetch, anyway? How about taking off your mask, shaking hands, saluting, unhooking, going outside into the hall and flinging your mask like a bowling ball?

Well, that's throwing your mask not in rage but disappointment...

And throwing you mask in disappointment is not an option for this poll, so no worries. It's cool. Get disappointed and bowl.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by Peach

Ad hominem assertions about those who disagree with the construction of the poll do not prove the point.

I can see considerable bias in the poll. For instance including "screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory" puts screaming and pumping into the categories of "claiming" which is a word with affective content, and a denotation of asserting the right to a disputable outcome. The choice of the word "screaming" is pejorative; there are a number of synonyms which have a different flavor, for instance "yelling" "calling out," "speaking loudly," or "hollering like a loony." Likewise, the phrase "nigh every action" has a folksy, amusingly retro flavor to it which somehow evokes a disapproving maiden aunt to me, or a droll New Englander leaning over a fence and commenting on the behavior of the tourists. Phrasing survey questions so that they are not loaded toward the surveyer's point of view is a complex process, and there is a reason that in most social science surveys the same question is often asked over and over again with different phrases. This one really does not try to be objective. The fact that you do not see any bias in it suggests that you assume others have the same labels and denotations for the labeled actions that you do. I find the survey almost impossible to answer in any meaningful way, myself.

Yes....he probably should have said "screaming, pumping one's arm, with the purpose of claiming victory" And, as I said, that some of the questions were over inclusive.

Wtouche was asserting that the survey was deliberately biased to support one point of view over the other.
I think that the survey was intended to be unbiased. It does not have language that appears to be intended to sway the answers one way or the other.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Well, that's throwing your mask not in rage but disappointment...

And throwing you mask in disappointment is not an option for this poll, so no worries. It's cool. Get disappointed and bowl.

I would agree.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by achilleus

People,

Almost all polls are biased in some way.

And let's get real. It's a semi-anonymous internet poll of a fencing chat board.

I doubt Craig ever thought the polling option would be used and expected to return conclusive, hard hitting results.

I mean everytime I actually vote on other websites, the polling data usually comes with a disclaimer about how it actually means squat.

So, why are we arguing about the validity of this poll? It's worthless in terms of conclusive data, but then again so are most internet polls.

Let's accept that and move on...

Ok...this is getting scary. I have agreed with achilles three times in one day.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Well, that's throwing your mask not in rage but disappointment...

And throwing your mask in disappointment is not an option for this poll, so no worries. It's cool. Get disappointed and bowl.

Been there, done that . . . Though once I did it outside right smack into a patch of poison ivy, serve me right.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

Yes....he probably should have said "screaming, pumping one's arm, with the purpose of claiming victory" And, as I said, that some of the questions were over inclusive.

I would use the phrase celebrating a perceived touch.

How's that for bias? It's not intentional, but that's how I honestly see many of the actions.

Originally Posted by DanInMI

Wtouche was asserting that the survey was deliberately biased to support one point of view over the other.
I think that the survey was intended to be unbiased. It does not have language that appears to be intended to sway the answers one way or the other.

Still no reason for you to call him a poor sport. You are capable of making a well formed, valid point without insults.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Peach

Been there, done that . . . Though once I did it outside right smack into a patch of poison ivy, serve me right.

Ya know, I've almost done the mask bowling/chucking thing, and then a little voice says 'That thing protects your head ya know. It's also expensive. It's not like you got endorsments pal. And really, your mask didn't cause you lose, now did it?'

Usually stops me with my arm pulled back...

[CarlKnoch]

I'm curious.... what does this poll do for us?

Sounds like the writer has something against people yelling after every touch. I would suggest he not fence if it annoys him. I fence because it's fun, and when people yell like banshees I normally just make fun of them in my head.

If you are that dead set against people yelling and pumping their fists, go take up a sport like golf instead.

I think you have to determine what the intent is. 1. Someone just wins the bout and whips off her mask which slips from her fingers and hits the ground. I would not card this. 2. Person loses bout and in a fit of anger whips off the mask which slips out of their hand and hits the ground. I will probably card that one.** Not much difference in the action, just the intent.

** Disclaimer: I had someone whip off a mask in anger once and it slipped and immediately that person's face turned to a look of horror as they turned to me and started with the apologies because it was a slip. That person did not get a card, just a stern warning. I had another who threw it in anger and then looked at me like "what are you going to do about it?" and he got the card. All in the intent and attitude.

[cfaustus]

I tried to make these questions unbiased. I also wanted to address the actions I have seen discussed here and elsewhere. The limit of 10 poll options made this difficult. As Peach mentioned, the coloquialism of my speach perhaps is a tad suggestive, but anyone who knows me knows that I have a penchant for antiquated speech. The only one which might really throw people off coming from a pure electrical scoring backgound is the question about indicating WHERE one is touched. When there is no lame to limit contact to the intended target area, judges are used to determine where a hit landed. It therefore could be considered unsportsmanlike to indicate WHERE a hit landed (off target) especially if it is a close call... As mentioned above, I think it would be very nice if all fencers indicated when they were hit validly, but they would not have to show exactly where unless asked by the ref. Accepting hits against before the ref decides, or when the ref is in doubt, is very sportsmanlike IMHO.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Accepting hits against before the ref decides, or when the ref is in doubt, is very sportsmanlike IMHO.

In tournaments that I've been to, it's also grounds for black card under collusion.

Yes. I've seen it a fencer deliberately and falsely acknowledge his teammate's touch just so his teammate will make it out of the pool, win the DE to earn a rating, or some other prize.

Intent is everything.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Ya know, I've almost done the mask bowling/chucking thing, and then a little voice says 'That thing protects your head ya know. It's also expensive. It's not like you got endorsments pal. And really, your mask didn't cause you lose, now did it?'

Usually stops me with my arm pulled back...

On the other hand, it keeps me from kicking the wall and breaking a toe, which is not only expensive but painful . . . so I consider it a relative victory over my VERY poor impulse control.

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by achilleus

In tournaments that I've been to, it's also grounds for black card under collusion.

Yes. I've seen it a fencer deliberately acknowledges his teammates touch just so his teammate will make it out of the pool, win the DE to earn a rating, or some other prize.

Intent is everything.

WOW! That sort of abuse never even entered my mind! Yes, intent IS everything...

[Scott Allen Abf]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

Huh?
if you think they are all poor sportsmanlike you just check all of them ....If you think none are unsportsmanlike, choose none of them.

No, it was a legit complain. Suppose 500 people looked at it, but 100 people voted, and 75 of them thought Choice A was unsportsmanlike.

This would draw the conclusion that 75% of fencers think Choice A is unsportsmanlike, when in reality is it only 12.5%.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Scott Allen Abf

No, it was a legit complain. Suppose 500 people looked at it, but 100 people voted, and 75 of them thought Choice A was unsportsmanlike.

This would draw the conclusion that 75% of fencers think Choice A is unsportsmanlike, when in reality is it only 12.5%.

No, I'm assuming that DanInMI had the right idea, and this way I can make claims that a whopping 97% think that none of these activities are unsportsmanlike.

[scarlet_woman156k]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0823/p10s01-alsp.html

I'm finding tons of articles on the 'net about fencing with all sorts of little weird tidbits/angles. Here's one about sportsmanship you may all be interested in since you're on the topic of it.

[DanInMI]

"In tournaments that I've been to, it's also grounds for black card under collusion.

Yes. I've seen it a fencer deliberately acknowledges his teammates touch just so his teammate will make it out of the pool, win the DE to earn a rating, or some other prize.

Intent is everything."

Huh?
no...it is only collusion if it is unt