Is any one else ashamed? - THE RECOUNT - read the poll question carefully

[cfaustus]

In the spirit of my actual inquiry which truly wished to gauge the sentiment of the fencing populace I have decided to repost my poll for a re-count. There were at least 3 or 4 people who stated that they misread the poll question. One demanded a recount. I shall now oblige. BUT, PLEASE, READ THE QUESTION CAREFULLY!

Do you find the behavior of modern fencers sportsmanlike?

By 'behavior' I am referring to such things as:

1) Screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory by both fencers after nigh every action.
2) Doing any of the above or any other POST-TOUCH-ACTION with the intent to influence the refs perception in one's own favor.
3) Throwing tantrums, throwing one's mask, etc in rage.
4) Failing to shake hands, failing to salute, taunting one's opponent (aka: the machine gun) after a bout.

I am NOT refering to:
1) Occasional celebratory outbursts after clear touches.
2) Celebratory outburst after the bout is over and the fencers have shaken hands (including: screaming, crying, jumping up and down, running around the piste, falling down sobbing, waving to one's Mom, etc.).
3) Fencers indicating that they have been touched either vocally or via a gesture such as a raised finger or hand or a des-apell.
4) Kiai-type yells DURING an action (Et La!)

The premise behind this is that I was raised to believe that sports, especially Olympic sports where to embody something noble (see posts under the original "Is no one else ashamed" thread). While I have stated that I recognize that other sports have given up decorous behavior, I have also stated that while this is a shame, I am not focusing on them because I am not involved in them. I am deeply devoted to fencing and as such, I personally feel ashamed watchin actions such as the above or having to explain them to non-fencers. I was just wondering if anyone else felt the same.

Due to the various discussions on the original thread I shall also attempt to provide another poll where you can vote on specific actions as described above.

I appologize for having you vote again. Thank you for your opinions.

[swordsen]

The problem is in your survey you ask about the behavior of "modern fencers" Not all "modern fencers" engage in the behavior you then later define. (indeed I would go so far as to say MOST "modern fencers" do not engage is such behavior) As such your survery is unanswerable in any accurate way.

[whtouche]

Maybe we should start a poll asking whether classical fencers complain alot and are obsessed with sport fencers or not.

[Victor]

I'm still a little confused. Do you mean "behavior" as in the way certain fencers pull their cars into parking spaces ahead of you even though it's obvious you've been waiting for that opening for five minutes? Or "behavior" like the way a certain fencer will screw around with their coach's wife when he should be practicing his footwork at the club? Or "behavior" when a fencer spits into his opponent's Gatorade bottle when the other guy's not looking?

Because, yeah, I think those examples are a little unsportsmanlike.

[sabreur]

Man, didn't this horse expire from absurdly brutal collective pummelling about three days ago?

MR

[Craig]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Do you find the behavior of modern fencers sportsmanlike?

By 'behavior' I am referring to such things as:

1) Screaming, pumping one's arm, or otherwise claiming victory by both fencers after nigh every action.
2) Doing any of the above or any other POST-TOUCH-ACTION with the intent to influence the refs perception in one's own favor.
3) Throwing tantrums, throwing one's mask, etc in rage.
4) Failing to shake hands, failing to salute, taunting one's opponent (aka: the machine gun) after a bout.

Umm...extremely biased question then. You are already defining what the behaviour of an entire class of people is.

You might as well ask "Do you find throwing tantrums to be sportsmanlike?" since that is what you are asking.

I answered the question asked by the poll and not the "clarification" you put down here since you purposefully overlook all of the "good" actions that I saw in the fencing matches at the Olympics and referred to by other sportswriters who were there.

Craig

[D'Artag-NOT]

The problem I'm having with the poll is that it's a Yes/No. There is no nuance--no option of "Sometimes", or "Some fencers in some instances". So I don't see how the question can be answered accurately. Certainly, I couldn't make such a sweeping generalization.

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by Craig

Umm...extremely biased question then. You are already defining what the behaviour of an entire class of people is.

You might as well ask "Do you find throwing tantrums to be sportsmanlike?" since that is what you are asking.

I answered the question asked by the poll and not the "clarification" you put down here since you purposefully overlook all of the "good" actions that I saw in the fencing matches at the Olympics and referred to by other sportswriters who were there.

Craig

Some people apparently had no problem with tantrums as an expression of emotion. This is why I included them. As for parsing out the behavior, see the corollary poll.

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by D'Artag-NOT

The problem I'm having with the poll is that it's a Yes/No. There is no nuance--no option of "Sometimes", or "Some fencers in some instances". So I don't see how the question can be answered accurately. Certainly, I couldn't make such a sweeping generalization.

Mea culpa... I thought about changing the wording of the poll but did not want to confuse people as the poll had already been discussed ad nauseum in my previous thread. Simply put, of course, I do not mean ALL modern fencers, ALL the time. And by modern, I am refering to contemporaneus rather than to a style. I have seen some of these actions from both classical as well as sport fencers. The purpose is to get at whether people find this sort of behavior acceptable.

[darius]

I *love* loaded questions.

In a majority of situations, my perception of the behavior of the majority of modern fencers is sportsmanlike. Unfortunately, there's no gray area in your question; consciously or not, you're pulling a "support our actions, or you're with the terrorists!" type move, which isn't particularly conducive to stimulating meaningful discussion.

However, given the lack of gray area, despite seeing things that I would personally not engage in, I'm going to have to say "Yes".

darius

[cfaustus]

Ok, due to the fact that almost all of you who originally complained that you voted incorrectly and as such demanded a recount are all now complaining about the poll AGAIN, should I just pull this poll? I figured all you guys talked about this stuff all already on the first thread... I was just trying to do you a favor and allow you to revote. If you found it so obtuse, why did you vote the first time? I don't want to glut the board on this so, if you guys really are opposed to this poll let me know, I'll pull the poll and thread (or have Craig do it if I can't figure out how to) and let the first and the corollary stand.

[Victor]

I think it would be inappropriate for you to pull your pole in public.

[vigia]

Originally Posted by sabreur

Man, didn't this horse expire from absurdly brutal collective pummelling about three days ago?

MR

Let's take a poll to see whether or not people think the horse is still dead!

[J.Harris]

Yes, enough with these silly polls. I think the majority of modern fencers are sportsman like or at least not unsportsmanlike, however I think your question is loaded, if you can't see that you are a

[swordsen]

Throwing a tantrum is unsportsman like.

Some of the antics that say Vanni pulled in the team foil were a bit out there but far from beyond the pale....

[darius]

The horse is dead, butchered, meat fed to Europeans and bones in the bottle of glue on my desk.

But I'm not feeling inspired today at work, and stress-testing Craig's MySQL database is important, what if fencing.net were to show up on Slashdot? Cfaustus, you're doing a public service.

Keep beating!!!

darius

[Victor]

My cat just regurgitated some of the horse meat on the floor with a furball.

[dunastor]

Originally Posted by Victor

My cat just regurgitated some of the horse meat on the floor with a furball.

Does your cat wear boots?

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Victor

I think it would be inappropriate for you to pull your pole in public.

Vic,
Do you pull your pole in public? Do you think fencing in general would be better respected if fencer's poles got pulled publicly? It's my opinion, and maybe just my opinion alone, that pole pulling is best done in private places.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

Vic,
Do you pull your pole in public? Do you think fencing in general would be better respected if fencer's poles got pulled publicly? It's my opinion, and maybe just my opinion alone, that pole pulling is best done in private places.

Thats the funniest thing I've heard all minute.