Input needed on software requirements

[BarryTice]

Anyone still remember me? I used to be on this board quite a bit a few years back, but haven't had much time to hang around lately. Hopefully that will change, but I make no promises.

I'm the guy who wrote Point Control -- released four years ago this month -- which was pretty much the first pretty, easy-to-use software for running fencing tournaments on a PC. The program had (has) its limitations, and I've been promising for years that I was going to start over from scratch and try to include more/better options.

I'm finally in a position where I can convince my wife that working on this will be good for my career, as it's an opportunity to use a language that I wouldn't otherwise get to deal with, which is something new for my résumé. So I'm digging back into all my old e-mails and soliciting input from anyone who cares to contribute.

Some things are guaranteed for the new version. They're the things that everyone wanted in the old version. They include (but are not limited to):

• Cross-platform operation -- No more being limited to Windows.
• Flexibility in event format -- No more limit of one pool seeding to DEs.
• Flexibility in rankings and ratings -- The majority of the world's fencers don't use USFA ratings.
• Internationalization -- The ability to translate buttons and labels.
• The ability to save fencer information so you can select from a list rather than retyping. (The current version of Point Control does this.)
• Export of event data to useful formats, like HTML. (The current version of Point Control does this.)

Additionally, at some point it will be set up to handle team events. That may not happen in the first version, but it's on the list.

Beyond this, I'm open to suggestions.

For those of you who use software to run tournaments, what would you like it to do that it doesn't? What would you like it to do differently?

I'm looking for any suggestions people wish to contribute. I prefer that they be listed here so they can be discussed openly and people may be able to improve on others' suggestions. But for those who wish to remain anonymous, I can still be reached at barrytice at pointcontrol dot com. (Sorry, but I get so much spam already that I'm not keen on adding another source for the spiders.) If you send something to that address, it would be helpful if you would mention fencing in the subject line to make your e-mail stand out from the offers for v|agra and mortg@ges and enlargement of body parts.

Additionally, I'd like to develop a pool of "subject-matter experts," especially outside the United States, who can assist me in understanding how things are done in the rest of the world. For example, I understand that in Australia, fencers are seeded in the first round of an event based on a national ranking that is maintained based on every event in which they compete. (I could be misunderstanding that, by the way. I might be confusing it with somewhere else. In fact, it's likely.) What other methods are used in seeding people into the first round? These people could also be instrumental in providing button and label translations for me.

I'm sure (at least I hope) I'm opening the floodgates here, and will soon be swamped with more information than I know what to do with. Bring it on. The more I know going in, the less I'll have to change halfway through.

Thanks for any input.

-- Barry Tice
http://www.pointcontrol.com

[davesaint]

We have been using point control for the last couple of years. One thing we have noticed is that it can be a real pain if you have to reseed. I don't know if there was a newer release that what we are using, but we noticed you have to start from scratch if reseedind is necessary. To be honest we are considering changing to Fencing Time. I know that it costs, but they offer free updates, tech support, and have software that allows you to integrate with palm pilots as well.

A director of a pool can complete all of the pool bouts and upload the results to Fencing Time. This is very useful.

Overall Point Control isn't bad, but these would be useful updates.


Dave

[BarryTice]

Dave --

Thanks for the quick feedback.

I'd like a little more information about this, if I can get it from you.

When you talk about reseeding, I assume you mean that pools have already been generated and you need to add or remove fencers before fencing has begun, right?

In theory, there shouldn't be a way to do this without reseeding from scratch, (meaning you would have to clear the pools and re-generate, but you wouldn't have to start over entering fencers for the event) because unless the new person happens to be a last-place seed, s/he wouldn't normally go in the "next" pool. Also, just dumping a last-minute person into the "next" pool could result in greater club conflicts than there should be; if the last-minute person is a member of the same club as someone else in the "next" pool and there's another pool that doesn't have anyone from that club in it, the last-minute fencer would normally be placed in that pool rather than the "next" pool.

But I'm certainly open to suggestions. If you can suggest a way that the new version should work that would overcome this, I'll be glad to consider it.

Also, for what it's worth, in theory Point Control wasn't free, either, though I expect most of the clubs using it are using it for free. There is a what-it's-worth-to-you-ware clause in the license that, uh, a lot of clubs seem to have overlooked. (Not like I was ever in this to make money, but it would have been nice....)

As for tech support, I'm not aware of any e-mails that I've ever left unanswered, though it's certainly possible that something with a generic subject has gotten thrown out with the spam at some point. I always look through the list before I trash things, but there's a lot of spam out there with no subject or with "hey there" or some such in the subject. So they generally get tossed without reading.

Palm pilots, on the other hand, have me beat at this point. Consider them added to my list of future enhancements (again, probably not the first release).

Again, thanks for the feedback. This is just the kind of thing I'm asking for.

-- b.r.t.

[JEC]

- PDA (palm) and Pocket PC compatibility, so directors can synch in the bouts and receive bout assignments.
- Ability to scan a UPC code containing name and ranking of pre-registered fencers.

[BarryTice]

Jec --

This UPC notion is a new one to me. Is there a standard for that information? Meaning, when the USFA (or other sponsoring organization) notifies you about, say, a ratings change, do they send you a UPC code that you can take to some events to be scanned in? Who is the distributing authority for the information, and does the code require access to some central database (meaning, for example, it reads a USFA number from the UPC code and performs a lookup of the current rating information)?

I'm intrigued by the idea, but it's the first I've heard of it. I'd love to have details if they're available.

Thanks.

-- b.r.t.

[CarlKnoch]

If you want beta testers I would be happy to volunteer. (I'm active in my division and help run just about every tourney right now)
Carl Knoch

[Artisan]

I haven't tried your software so I may be speaking out of school: Consider carefully the design you implement for printing poolsheets, DE bout slips, and the organization (numbering / indexing) of said sheets and slips.

At tournaments I've been to where Enguard in is use, the biggest and most time consuming task - and potentially event delaying task is the entering of data - the paper / computer interface.

Suppose a score sheet that prints out the bouts and fencers names also has a machine readable code (barcode or other - like US postal or 2d fax encryption) that indicates the contents of the sheet, and can also either OCR the handwritten scores, or have the scores recorded as machine readable dots (remember the tests - use #2 pencils). Format it so the results can be fit into a 2"x3" section or tear off and scanned by a cheap busibess caard type scanner for entry.

This way bout committeee simply inserts the score slips, verifies the onscreen data, and accepts the entry. No typing, less chance for error.

Same scanner could be set up to read USFA membership card - we all have 'em. Again fast registration, no typing less chance for error.

And of course - ideally you'd write a PDA client for referees to do the same thing. They can then use the PDA to keep time & score. At end of pool or DE. PDA beams result to Bout committee PC by IR or blue tooth.

And last... Be sure you provide a means to print seedings, pools and tableaus in larger size fonts, and tile the pages together to make poster size print outs - or support a plotter. How many times have you stood in a crowd of 50 people trying to find your name in tiny type on a huge list in 12 point type on 8-1/2 x 11 paper. Yet another situation when height has its advantages in epee.

Enguard allows you to save results in html - which simplifies distribution of results via the web - a nice convenience.

[Craig]

Barry,

As someone whose mission is to report on the goings on in the fencing world, I have some desires for fencing software that come from a totally different plane of those running a tournament, but some who run tournaments may want this functionality.

I would like to see tournament results batchs (zipped or tarballed) to be uploaded to a server with another server-side program (php + mysql) that would then store those results for research and reporting. I would use this to encourage tournament organizers to send me the files or upload the files so that I can provide news/information on the regional/local level and not just the national/international level as I do today.

I would then be able to incorporate the results with press releases or stories form the organizers or division officers and get them more visibility (as fencing.net is the #1 on google).

Thanks,
Craig

[darius]

Craig,

You could get that, as long as the program had an "Export to XML" feature. I've been doing a lot of work with XML and PHP lately, and I'd be willing to write something that would take the XML and put that data into a MySQL database.

It'd be pretty cool to see, at a glance, one's entire seasonal results, right down to the bout sheet!

darius

[JEC]

The idea of a UPC scan has been discussed before in this forum regarding suggestions to make the NAC tournaments easier and more friendly. No, it is not done by USFA.

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7244

[BarryTice]

I'd certainly be happy to come up with a means to export data, and XML seems like a reasonable choice for it. There might be some challenges in coming up with a schema that would be appropriate for all formats. For example, I remember at the Olympic tryouts for Modern Pentathlon about a dozen years ago, they fenced a one-touch round-robin with something like 30 fencers, twice. A round-robin is basically a pool that has everyone in it, so that wouldn't be any real change from a pool schema. But the XML schema for a DE table would have to look a lot different, and even more so with repachage. (Is that the right spelling? I can never remember.)

Potentially, there could be other bizarre formats, or restrictions on how the data should be interpreted. Such as, how would the schema distinguish between a pool where everyone advances and a pool where only the top three advance? If you're only interested in posting what the pool looked like, it's insignificant. But if you want to be able to essentially re-create the event at a later date, the only limit on the formats the events could take would be my imagination (and the imaginations of all the people who might ask for specialized formats).

Of course, if I'm the only one writing any software that performs this kind of data output, I guess it would be up to me to define the exports any way I wanted; but if I just wanted to do things my way, I wouldn't be here asking for suggestions.

Given that I'm expecting to be working in Python, it's not inconceivable that I might develop a web-based version of a Point Control data browser somewhere that allows clubs to upload the Point Control data files for an event in one piece. That way anyone online could browse through all the events in the system just as if they were at the event (with obvious restrictions for editing and such). I'm still learning, but I understand Python makes a great CGI scripting language.

As for all the suggestions for business-card scanning and UPC codes, at this point I'm a bit less enthusiastic. I expect that many of the clubs using the existing version of Point Control are scrounging to find someone with a reliable laptop and printer they can consistently cart off to an event. If the money I've received from clubs over the last four years for having written Point Control is any indicator, most of the clubs using it don't have a very big technology budget that's not already being spent on scoring boxes. The what-it's-worth-to-you-ware payments so far wouldn't buy a decent all-in-one laser-printer/scanner/fax device (though I could get an inkjet one), let alone a used laptop -- and that's even before you take out the costs of domain registration and web hosting fees (and CDs and labels passed out at tournaments, and buying a copy of VB to write the thing in).

While it would be nice to have that kind of capacity for the really large events that have the financial support to have the hardware, I have a hard time putting it at the top of the priority list. First I need to get the new version working -- architecting in terms of later goals, yes -- before I start adding in features like that. Suggestions like oversized printing for tiled pool sheets are likely to come first. (That's a nice one, by the way.)

The result of all this is, I don't mean to say I'm never going to do anything like this. I'm just going to start with features that have a little more universal appeal and work my way up to things like that. (Remember, this is my "free" time I'm spending for this....)

In spite of the pessimistic tones of the last few paragraphs, I'm quite pleased by the response I'm getting here so far. Please think some more about it and let me know what else you can come up with!

Thanks.

-- b.r.t.

[Artisan]

Having worked with software developers before, getting one idea in three accepted seems to be about par. Mr. Pie, please meet Mr. Sky.

BTW - Barry, you're clearly a professional in the field. I've only heard programmers (oops - software engineers) use the term: Architecting

[oso97]

Actually, if you're talking about importing and exporting data, then you should be coordinating efforts with Peet Sasaki - the guy who runs askFred.net. Thats already a great centralized pre-registration and results reporting website. Its been heavily adopted by certain regions here in the US. and given that its now also the central publication venue for referee rankings, one could make a guess or two about how the USFA might be looking at it for future developments. But, the ability to batch load pre-registration information from another source is a critical component for anything beyond the most basic tournament software, IMHO.

Additional thoughts -

Multi system support. By this, I mean the capability to run a single tournament on multiple networked systems, with a shared backend database of fencer information and files. A browser based interface system would be perfect for this. For example, you could have a couple of machines at the registration table doing check in and making changes to the data as neccessary that are then immediately visable to the TC folks in the back. One of the parents at my club actually wrote some software to do just this, the problem we've had is interfacing it with any existing system - right now we use it for check in, and then alter the files in the computer as neccessary.

Multiple seeding categories. One nice thing about Xseed is that you can use a couple of different seeding situations. For example, straight, USFA letters and years, with or without point standings (multiple different kinds). Oh and make it customizable - okay maybe thats asking for a bit much.

Truely Important - seperate place on bout sheets to mark penalties.

[EricS]

Originally Posted by JEC

- PDA (palm) and Pocket PC compatibility, so directors can synch in the bouts and receive bout assignments.
- Ability to scan a UPC code containing name and ranking of pre-registered fencers.

Some very good ideas here. IIRC most PDAs have infrared capability, as do most laptops. So bout assignments and score sheets are no longer necessary--the referee would walk up to bout committee and sync the PDA with the bout committee laptop instead.

UPC codes would be really handy and can be read by a keyboard wedge (try looking up the CueCat on Google.) Software support is breathtakingly simple because the keyboard wedge mimics keystrokes.

I wish I had all these toys years ago when I did the website for the Bay Cup circuit tournament. Our biggest problem was all the creative spellings for people's names...the software I wrote for tracking points would create a new entry if the spelling didn't match exactly.

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by EricS

bout assignments and score sheets are no longer necessary--the referee would walk up to bout committee and sync the PDA with the bout committee laptop instead.

But how do I sign the score sheet? Same concern as for electronic voting without a paper trail.

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Artisan

But how do I sign the score sheet? Same concern as for electronic voting without a paper trail.

You can still sign on the screen like they do for those ATM/credit card machines at retail stores all over.

[peet]

Hi there Barry, Darius, Craig-

(Craig already knows most of this, but: )

I'm the developer of FRED (askfred.net). If you are interested in integrating Point Control with FRED, i'd be happy to discuss it with you. The developer of Fencing Time and I have already implemented preregistration and results transfer between the website and the tournament software via XML files, so if you'd be interested in working with the same formats, we might be able to make it work pretty easily.

I have also developed several SOAP based services & clients that a web site (like a club or division site) can use to display events & results relevant to their locale, served from the FRED database.

Craig: have you had any more luck using those SOAP clients i sent you? It's been a while since we last spoke about it.

Darius: FRED does most of what you've suggested (tho' admittedly could do better in some ways ). How about we all work together on it, rather than duplicate each others' efforts?

Also, we (Dan the FT guy & I) have been working out how to convey the DE & pool results in the XML as well. It's not too bad as long as (as you have mentioned) all you are hoping to accomplish is to list the results online and perhaps search the data (e.g. "how many bouts have i lost 15-14 this year?"). I'd be very interested in your thoughts on these things ....

Please feel free to email me :
peet at askfred dot net

[darius]

FRED does most of what you've suggested (tho' admittedly could do better in some ways ). How about we all work together on it, rather than duplicate each others' efforts?

Peet --

I agree that it's silly to duplicate efforts. Since you have the overwhelming body of work currently, I wouldn't mind adding my [time|mind]share to the pot. My expertise is in web applications; mostly I work in PHP/Perl/MySQL, but I did a lot of XML/XSLT and internationalization research for kodak.com back in my college years.

Do you have anything that needs doing?

darius

[peet]

Originally Posted by darius

Do you have anything that needs doing?

Right now i'm coming to the end of a round of feature enhancements and refactoring (geek word alert!!! ), so as soon as that's over, i'm gonna look into how to make use of help from folks like yourself. (i've had one or two other such generous offers)

You wouldn't happen to know much about how to get registration and results into/out of Engarde & xSeed? Integrating with other software packages is a high priority for me, but i've had little time to hack at those programs...

Then I just have to get over my fear of other, better developers seeing my crappy code!

-p

[Mergs]

I think that this fairly covers all the aspects of what everyone is suggesting. I have sent this to USFA and it has fallen into their comittee blackhole. It covers a high end system, but the elements are all there and many of the components could be rented for a large tournament (Duel in the Desert?).

I had originally asked for folks to help out with this, but since USFA hasn't shown any interest I've let it lapse. If anyone would be interested in working it, I'll be glad to share more of the documentation I've developed, like the interface and requirements document.

Well, I tried to up load it, but it is too big and I can't seem to delete anything I've already got out there. So if your interested in it, please pm me and I'll send it to you.