Radioactive rumour

[TheArmourer]

A while ago I heard a rummour warning about radioactive blades.
The story went that cheap blades were being made from old tank gun barrels in the former Soviet block. And because the gun barrels had fired DU shells (ie Depleted Uranium armour peircing shells) there was a danger of the blades being radioactive.

I spoke to someone with over 30yrs experience in radiation health and safety who has regularly consulted with the nuclear industry and armed forces and on cases including battle field exposure to DU and the like. His reply was that that there would be absolutely no danger to fencers if they used such blades and that this was nothing more than scare mongering.

So I'm not at all concerned with the validity of the rummour, but I am curious as to how far the rummour got.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

never heard it. Worst it would do is give me super powers.

[Inquartata]

Depleted uranium. It's less radioactive even than common uranium ore, which itself isn't all that dangerous before it's enriched. DU is only a problem when it's aerosolized and either breathed or ingested, as the rays it produces are stopped by clothing and human skin but can damage internal organs over time from within.

So just don't sand your blades and eat the powdered residue.

[Louweasel]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

So just don't sand your blades and eat the powdered residue.

D@mmit Inq, you've put me off my lunch! *louweasel puts down her powdered soviet-block foil residue sandwich and looks around hungrily*

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Depleted uranium. It's less radioactive even than common uranium ore, which itself isn't all that dangerous before it's enriched. DU is only a problem when it's aerosolized and either breathed or ingested, as the rays it produces are stopped by clothing and human skin but can damage internal organs over time from within.

So just don't sand your blades and eat the powdered residue.

Actually, RADIATION from DU is not what makes it dangerous if it is ingested. What makes it dangerous is that it is a heavy metal, like lead, and causes poisoning much like lead does.

There is a WHO report on the subject out there for those who are interested.

MR

[CvilleFencer]

Never heard it before. Being ex military I have spent a fair amount of time playing with DP shells in the past and have not grown a third eye yet. I certainly am not worried about handling something made from a barrel that fired them! I was always more worried about electronic emmisions from radar and IR gear. That and sucking down a bit of JP8 or Halon. Also I would think that most of the lingering radiation would be taken care of in the forging process. After all they have to re-smelt and reprocess the stuff even if it is true.

I would blame the French for this round of rumor mongering. Why the French? Why not.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Louweasel

D@mmit Inq, you've put me off my lunch! *louweasel puts down her powdered soviet-block foil residue sandwich and looks around hungrily*

Huh! And here I thought weasels subsisted on small rodents, fowl and insects! You are indeed extraordinary in so many ways!

BTW, whatever became of the "don't get sucked into jet engines" sig? ( You know how change distresses me! )

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by sabreur

Actually, RADIATION from DU is not what makes it dangerous if it is ingested. What makes it dangerous is that it is a heavy metal, like lead, and causes poisoning much like lead does.

A little of both, actually:

"Q. What makes depleted uranium a potential hazard?

A. Depleted uranium is a heavy metal that is also slightly radioactive. Heavy metals (uranium, lead, tungsten, etc.) have chemical toxicity properties that, in high doses, can cause adverse health effects. Depleted uranium that remains outside the body can not harm you.

A common misconception is that radiation is depleted uranium's primary hazard. This is not the case under most battlefield exposure scenarios.
Alpha particles, the primary radiation type produced by depleted uranium, are blocked by skin, while beta particles are blocked by the boots and battle dress utility uniform (BDUs) typically worn by service members. While gamma rays are a form of highly-penetrating energy , the amount of gamma radiation emitted by depleted uranium is very low. Thus, depleted uranium does not significantly add to the background radiation that we encounter every day.

When fired, or after "cooking off" in fires or explosions, the exposed depleted uranium rod poses an extremely low radiological threat as long as it remains outside the body. Taken into the body via metal fragments or dust-like particles, depleted uranium may pose a long-term health hazard to personnel if the amount is large. However, the amount which remains in the body depends on a number of factors, including the amount inhaled or ingested, the particle size and the ability of the particles to dissolve in body fluids. "


http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

A little of both, actually:

"Q. What makes depleted uranium a potential hazard?

A. Depleted uranium is a heavy metal that is also slightly radioactive. Heavy metals (uranium, lead, tungsten, etc.) have chemical toxicity properties that, in high doses, can cause adverse health effects. Depleted uranium that remains outside the body can not harm you.

A common misconception is that radiation is depleted uranium's primary hazard. This is not the case under most battlefield exposure scenarios.
Alpha particles, the primary radiation type produced by depleted uranium, are blocked by skin, while beta particles are blocked by the boots and battle dress utility uniform (BDUs) typically worn by service members. While gamma rays are a form of highly-penetrating energy , the amount of gamma radiation emitted by depleted uranium is very low. Thus, depleted uranium does not significantly add to the background radiation that we encounter every day.

When fired, or after "cooking off" in fires or explosions, the exposed depleted uranium rod poses an extremely low radiological threat as long as it remains outside the body. Taken into the body via metal fragments or dust-like particles, depleted uranium may pose a long-term health hazard to personnel if the amount is large. However, the amount which remains in the body depends on a number of factors, including the amount inhaled or ingested, the particle size and the ability of the particles to dissolve in body fluids. "


http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm

The "chemical toxicity properties" will kill you a lot quicker than the radiation ever would. And would have serious negative health effects if they didn't kill you. Heavy metal poisoning is a nasty thing.

MR

[downunder]

Originally Posted by TheArmourer

A while ago I heard a rummour warning about radioactive blades.
The story went that cheap blades were being made from old tank gun barrels in the former Soviet block. And because the gun barrels had fired DU shells (ie Depleted Uranium armour peircing shells) there was a danger of the blades being radioactive.

I spoke to someone with over 30yrs experience in radiation health and safety who has regularly consulted with the nuclear industry and armed forces and on cases including battle field exposure to DU and the like. His reply was that that there would be absolutely no danger to fencers if they used such blades and that this was nothing more than scare mongering.

So I'm not at all concerned with the validity of the rummour, but I am curious as to how far the rummour got.

FIE blades require a radiation test anyways, afaik, look in the appendix

[TheArmourer]

Originally Posted by TheArmourer

...So I'm not at all concerned with the validity of the rummour, but I am curious as to how far the rummour got.

Was it only D+F+P=Hadouken! & CvilleFencer that read my post right to the end?

FYI - Inquartata I'm reasonably well aquainted with the differences between 235 & 238 and the nature of DU but I really didn't want to start a debate on fissile materials, half lives and the relative toxisities heavy metals. That's why I wrote the 3rd paragraph.

[Templar147]

all I have to say is, no one will go searching for your blade if it is radioactive!

*pulls out the trusty geiger counter*

[Artisan]

But why does my Fleche blade glow in the dark? How come my STM blade triggers my test box - and theres no battery in it? Why does my epee make that humming light saber sound when I make a coupe?

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Artisan

Why does my epee make that humming light saber sound when I make a coupe?

Where'd you get that blade? I wish I had an epee that makes lightsabre sounds...

[MyraTrue]

hmmm... can't say I ever heard that rumor before. Then again, I think I fenvce with a lot of people who's response would be "COOL!" and an immediate purchase of said supposed radioactive blades.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Where'd you get that blade? I wish I had an epee that makes lightsabre sounds...

I'm convinced that my leon-paul epee blade is magic. It feels "alive" when I hold it, parries like a vniti, flicks like a flick master and has an odd glow about it when I do a bind. That and quivers slightly when you first pick it up. Its totally wierd, I'm not sure its not mythril.

[Philistine]

Not that it matters to the rumor (and I hadn't heard it)--but the Russians don't actually use a depleted uranium round in their tanks.

--Philistine

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Not that it matters to the rumor (and I hadn't heard it)--but the Russians don't actually use a depleted uranium round in their tanks.

--Philistine

Do they still use normal APFSDS or HEAT rounds? Even with the newer jobs like the M90 MBT? I thought that was one of the reasons for the 125mm SB guns on the newer MBTs was to handle the Laser Guided Projectile rounds as well as DP rounds but I was out of the business before the new generation of Russian armor actually went into service so I could be wrong.

[Mergs]

Even if the Russian MBT's used DP rounds, riddle me this Batman, How would the radioactivity be transmitted to the barrel?

1. A "sabot" round's business end is a long rod penetrator that is about 17.5 to 20 mm in diameter. The bore of the gun tube is 125mm. The penetrator is never in contact with the metal of the tube.

2. DP is a service, not training, round. That means it is used in combat only. The Russians haven't fought armor in almost 6o years (although their surrogates have with disaterous results!).

3. DP is a realatively new development in tank ammunition and designed for 120mm or higher caliber tubes. Why would the Russian government scrap their newer MBT's, when they have so many T-62 and T-55's to get rid of?

So tell me again why anyone would want to believe this "swords into plowshares", OMG they're trying to radiate us BS?

Sorry, soapbox rant over.

[Artisan]

There was a case a few years back where some iron / steel castings for restaurant / cafe style table bases were made in Mexico from recyled scrap of dubious origin. There was a recall of several thousand that were imported by the US. I forget what the source was - either medcal waste contamination or a shady deal made by a reactor decomissioning contractor. These things sent a geiger counter buzzing. Perhaps the blade thing was a drift of this, becoming an urban myth.