$50/yr for USFA membership

[Scott Allen Abf]

Wow, that came as a shock.

What happened to the "fence for fun" el-cheapo membership?

We have a number of fencers who are not interested in fencing competitively for the year, but are only interested in fencing in their local tournament. Adding $50 to the cost of the tournament is enough to dissuade a lot of them who were on the fence.

Too bad they are getting so expensive.....

[fencergal33]

They upped the family membership too. It used to be $80, and now it's $100....only a $20 difference, but for our family of 2, we can no long save money on it until my son is old enough to compete. They've also raised the price for NACs......highway robbery.

[oiuyt]

NAC fees have NOT changed for this coming season.

Membership fees change once a quadrennial. The USFA decided 4 years ago not to adjust fees until this year and has, again, decided to make this move and then leave the fees in place for at least another 4 years.

The fence-for-fun memberships were causing difficulties as people would compete in tournaments they were not eligible for (any qualifying path event) without the local organizers catching it, problems came up when a fence-for-fun member would otherwise have earned a rating, etc. Additionally it wasn't addressing the originally intended target. FFF was theoretically designed as a minimal-cost alternative. With the fixed costs that the USFA had to pass along however the membership fee was only $10 less than that of a full, competitive member. With the increase the FFF membership would have cost $40 which is pretty much the same barrier to entry that a $50 competitve membership fee is. It was decided to simplify and remove that option.

$50/year is NOT much money compared to the amount that people spend on fencing. It's not even much compared to what people spend on entry fees, much less club fees or lessons. That's what, about 2 lessons in most parts of the country (more in some, less in others)? If you view it as a huge cost for that first tournament, then, yes, it's a lot. If you view it as simply a part of the annual fencing costs, then, no, it should barely register.

As for highway robbery on the increased NAC fees.... That went directly to increasing the amount paid to higher level referees. Until this past season referees were paid $40 for a day that could be 12-14 hours long, standing all day, doing a hard, highly skilled task, while being reviled and screamed at by any number of coaches and competitors. For a minimal honorarium that can't be viewed as pay because it would be noticibly below minimum wage. The increase in NAC fees was completely reasonable.

Is fencing cheap? No. Is a slight increase in the membership fees every four years reasonable? Yes. Is 25% slight? Not really. Is $10 slight? Borderline. $50 certainly is a rounder number than $45 though.

-B :)
*how long until this thread moves into being another thread about whether or not the rank and file are getting their money's worth from the USFA? Over/Under is about 2.5 more posts I think.*

[grotto]

This one does not really make any sense to me. It costs me $50 each for me and my wife with the regular fee schedule. (both being competitive members) It costs me $100 for the "Family" rate, we only get one magazine, and we get to place our daughter down as an associate member. Which is ok now because she is too young to fence (mainly doing it for insurance reasons when we bring her to club.) I could see Family giving say a senior and up to three youth memberships or some such but the way it is structured now it doesn't really help families of fencers unless you have several kids fencing and you do not.

As for the "fence-for-fun" it was weird. You can fence, but not earn a rating, but you can upgrade if you actually do well enough to get a rating. would make more sense to just have a first time member discount say -$10 off for new members. Helps with the sticker shock of the first tournement. (OK, so I need to give you $50 for the USFA, $25 for the first weapon, and $15 if I want to fence any other weapons etc. OK where is the loan application?)

[Scott Allen Abf]

Yeah, but there is a threshold where people start to say "OK, nevermind, it's not worth it." And a lot of these young prospective fencers do not have an overabundance of cash.

It's too bad. It will keep some percentage of prospective fencers away from tournaments.

When you are fencing tournaments all year long, the $50 is not much. When you are considering going to one single tournament to see if you like it, then that amount changes a $10 or $20 admission into a $60 or $70 admission.

Maybe they took the wrong approach in getting rid of "fence for fun". Maybe they should have changed it to "Fence One Tournament" or "Fence For A Day" and charged $20.

[darius]

That's something the Canadian Fencing Federation -- or at least, some of their provincial associations do. If you want to try fencing competitively, you can purchase a one-day membership, which will allow you to register for that specific OFA tournament. It's something on the order of $15.

That seems much better than the Fence For Fun, since there are really no administrative fees necessary, you don't need to process much paperwork, and the cost is cheap enough that people will actually take advantage of it.

darius

[edew]

Except the money goes directly to the local organizers and won't see USFA's light of day. And if done frequently, there's more impetus for the local organizers to sell the one-day membership than to sell the USFA membership. USFA loses revenue and corruption reigns locally.

Speaking too conspiratorically? My first competition (in AFLA) was in Los Angeles. I and my friend both paid cash, paid our AFLA/USFA membership fees. Never received our membership notice nor bimonthly magazine. Asked, "hey what happened to our membership?" Answered with, "what membership?"

Best thing is to pay with a check or credit card to USFA.

I handle all sorts of cash payment for USFA (and Bay Cup) fees. It's easy to see how an honest mistake can happen. It's also easy to see how corruption and screw someone over can happen. Some poor schlub who looks like he'll never fence again can easily be taken in and if he pays cash, will never see a membership notice.

What I do is prepare my fencers by telling them to sign up now. Then, the entry fee and other fees are not so shocking.

[Army Fencer]

Let's compare (data came from each association's homepage):

National Archery Association
Adult: $80
Family: $100
Junior: $30
Form reminds you that you're helping the US Olympic Team

USA Badminton
Adult: $30
Junior: $20
Family: $65
One tournament: $25

American Bowling
Athlete: $16
Get awards for the games you bowl!

USA Boxing:
Depends on Region

USA Cycling
Adult: $50
Junior: $25
On-line Registration!

USA Field Hockey
Adult: $50
Junior: $40
On-line Registration!

USA Gymnastics
On-line: $43
Mail: $48
On-line registration is less expensive!

US Judo, Inc
Athlete: $50

USA National Karate-do Federation
Althete: $50

USA Raquetball
Adult: $30
Junior: $20
On-line registation!

US Rowing
Under 26: $45
Over 26: $65

US Sailing
Adult: $50
Youth (under 21): $20
Family: $75

US Squash Racquet Assocation
Adult: $50
Junior: $35

USA Synchro (synchronized swimming)
Adult affliliated with a club: $56
Adult not affiliated with a club: $41
On-line Registration!

USA Table Tennis
Adult - $40
Junior (Under 18) - $20
Household - $60
On-line Registration!

US Taekwondo Union
Competitor: $35

USA Team Handball
Adult: $35 ($50 if you want the T-shirt)
Junior: $25
Youth: $15
Remember, it's tax deductible!

United States Tennis Association
Adult: $35
Junior: $15
Family: $55

USA Track & Field
Adult: >$20
Junior: >$15
Depends on region
Register On-line!

USA Triathlon
Adult: $30
Junior: $15
Register On-line!

USA Water Ski
Adult: $55
Junior: $35
Family: $60

USA Weightlifting
Adult: $35
Junior: $30
Youth: $10

USA Wrestling
Althete: ~$30
Depends on region

Apparently no membership needed:
Baseball
Basketball
Soccer
Softball
Swimming
Volleyball

Poor websites:
Pentathlon
Shooting
Equestrian
Water Polo

[oso97]

I do the same thing that edew does, get my fencers to be USFA members well before their first serious competition, both to alieviate 'stickershock' and also for the obvious benefits (insurance, magazine, voting rights, etc).

But if you're worried about it being too much of a shock for the fencer who wants to "try it once" then hold more unrated, novice, non-USFA events. There is nothing out there that says that all fencing tournaments HAVE to be USFA-sanctioned events. Particularly for youth beginners, non-USFA "training events" held in clubs can be great ways to introduce to competition.

[Army Fencer]

I think that the USFA is on the upper side of the spectrum, but well within reason--and below some other sports. The only big difference is that the USFA doesn't create a degradation between adult and junior competitor like most other sports do.

I think that fencing, as a competitive sport, is more costly than some of the other sports to set up and run national competitions, with less income. We also don't receive any money from a mirroring, professional body.

Until fencing breaks into the mainstream, our costs will remain as they are.

[Rolls]

Also, bear in mind the insurance factor. Although a lot of these other sports have an equal/greater need for insurance,they don't have the stigma of a "sword" sport. And many of them probably don't provide any insurance coverage, etc.

Much of the reason why you have to have the USFA membership is for the insurance.

Rolls.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Let's compare (data came from each association's homepage):
[...]

A couple more:

USA Shooting
Adult: $35
Junior: $20
http://www.usashooting.com/membersapp.html


US Canoe and Kayak
Adult: $55 (up from $40)
Junior :$25 (unchanged)
Family :$110 (up from $95)
http://www.usacanoekayak.org/articles/newfees.asp

[sabreur]

The annual membership fee for USA Swimming is $50, although it isn't mentioned on their site (Boo on them!). I had to Google it to find out what it is.

MR

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

*how long until this thread moves into being another thread about whether or not the rank and file are getting their money's worth from the USFA? Over/Under is about 2.5 more posts I think.*

Preemptive strikes are UNFAIR, Brad!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Scott Allen Abf

It will keep some percentage of prospective fencers away from tournaments.

I wonder if that isn't at least partially the idea. The USFA is concerned about the ever-increasing numbers at tournaments overwhelming their administrative resources and making for long delays, etc. The best mechanism for reducing demand is to raise the price...

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by mfp

A couple more:

USA Shooting
Adult: $35
Junior: $20
http://www.usashooting.com/membersapp.html


US Canoe and Kayak
Adult: $55 (up from $40)
Junior :$25 (unchanged)
Family :$110 (up from $95)
http://www.usacanoekayak.org/articles/newfees.asp

Thank you.

[CvilleFencer]

There are several fencers at my club that have been put off by the USFA membership price and probably will not fence competitively because of that.

I think what the USFA should do IMHO (they never will as this would hurt the funding of their elite top 0.3% athletes and degrade their abilities to meet at the finest spas and hotels. Do I agree with Inq. about something? ) is have a two tiered system.

The higher tier, the National level fencer, are the fencers that head out to the NACs and summer Nationals and fence in international events. They generally have the money and resources for training, are comitted to the sport, drive a lot of the USFA costs and could afford a very serious jump in membership price, maybe as much as $150. These fencers could fence in other states or NAC/National tourneys, attend WC events, Ect.

The Second tier would be the State level fencer. They would pay their dues to the division (and the prices would be set by the division not to exceed a national standard, say $30) they are in which would help fund local grass roots growth of fencing and allow us to give more momentum to the sport such as helping to develop school programs, YMCA and Parks and Rec. clubs and other local scale development programs as necessary. This would of course lead to an overall upsurge in US fencing which should be the goal of the USFA to begin with. Instead their attitude seems to be "if you’re not an A with International aspirations just pay your money and shut up".

[sabreur]

I hate to say it, but $50 is pretty trivial, and I imagine a good chunk of it goes for insurance.

The USA Swimming fee is the same amount, and I was amazed by the amount of insurance and safety information on their site--I mean, what the hell can happen at a swim meet? Someone falls from running on the deck? There are no pointy objects, no one whacking each other, nobody is going to drown (these are people who spend hours a day in the pool...).

Weird.

MR

[Rolls]

Originally Posted by sabreur

I mean, what the hell can happen at a swim meet? Someone falls from running on the deck? There are no pointy objects, no one whacking each other, nobody is going to drown (these are people who spend hours a day in the pool...).

Yea, but I bet a lot of their concerns comes from small kids just starting out. They could drown. Or maybe a tired athlete pushes too far. The concern probably isn't that real, but to insurers it is (there are a lot of deaths from swimming accidents, granted there probably aren't athletes involved). Really, the concern of injury in fencing is pretty remote, but tell that to an insurance company.

I've been taking SCUBA classes recently, and the instructor was saying that there were about 90-100 deaths a year. And he thought this was extremely low. Compared to that the risk of fencing seems terribly small.

I mean if you look at comparative risk, insurance companies should stop insuring cars. They're much more likely to get in a wreck and have a higher chance of causing serious injury.

Rolls.

[mlr2fence]

If one thinks that $50 will keep someone from joining USFA then what lower $$ amount would be better, considering that insurance is included? $30? Thats only $20 difference--an amount less than the cost of most tickets--concerts, pro sports, plays. I have a hard time believing that $50 once a year cost will keep someone who really wants to compete from joining. (esp when that fee is really in line with other sports)