Falling to avoid a hit

[Grasshopper]

Question: Can someone clarify the rule regarding this? In foil, if I make a parry and my opponent falls to avoid the riposte, is that a yellow card?

[Mihail]

"Falls to avoid the hit" is very vague, since the fencer could be falling on purpose, which would consitute disorderly fencing. If the fencer falls accidentally WHILE avoiding a hit, just a halt is called, without a card. If the fencer scores while making a hit, s/he receives a yellow card.

I hope I'm not wrong.

[Grasshopper]

"Falls to avoid the hit" is very vague, since the fencer could be falling on purpose, which would consitute disorderly fencing. If the fencer falls accidentally WHILE avoiding a hit, just a halt is called, without a card. If the fencer scores while making a hit, s/he receives a yellow card.

I hope I'm not wrong.

OK...let me explain. I am taller than most of the fencers in my club. I find that against certain fencers, when I make a parry and am about to deliver the riposte, they are already "inside" my reach and should be easy to hit, but they often twist and turn to try to avoid my impending riposte, and many times end up falling on the ground. I mean, everyone falls from time to time, but it seems that to them, falling is just another "option" to deal with my riposte. Obviously they could remise or try a counter parry, riposte, but in many cases, they just collapse to the ground, and this gets on my nerves - I mean this is a stand-up sport isn't it?

[drseudo]

If the fencer scores while making a hit, s/he receives a yellow card.

Wow, harsh.

[Mihail]

Haha. I meant "falls while making a hit."

EDIT: The worst thing is I had to read it 309 times before seeing it.

[JackSparrow]

The rules state that you must maintain your fencing equilibrium at all times so yes, if they fall as they deliver their reposte the rule is that they are awarded a yellow card. However, you are allowed to duck and crouch as much as you like so long as you don't expose the back of your head to your opponent.

[CarlKnoch]

There is no rule that covers falling to avoid a touch specifically. There is a rule that covers falling while scoring a touch. You can't score while falling. IF you get a light the touch is annulled.

If you fall while someone attacks you then it would be up to the referee to decide if you are out of control or not and card or not based on his perception of the action. Falling in itself is not a cardable offense anymore. There are other rules which would allow the ref to give a card though and I"m sure if I saw someone fall on purpose as they are being attacked, I would pull one out.

[whtouche]

Leaving the strip to avoid a touch is a red card.
Shouldn't the same be true of purposefully falling to avoid a touch?

[edew]

Haha. I meant "falls while making a hit."

EDIT: The worst thing is I had to read it 309 times before seeing it.

Yeah, I didn't get it either.

[edew]

Leaving the strip to avoid a touch is a red card.
Shouldn't the same be true of purposefully falling to avoid a touch?

It's a yellow card, AFAIK. For falling, if the fall is deliberate as a result of attempting to avoid a touch, then it's a clear case of disorderly fencing. The fencer is deliberately trying to avoid being hit, which means it's intentional. In doing so, the fencer falls, which means he cannot control himself. All falls, whether intentional or not, are defined as loss of control. (For example, stepping on the side of a raised strip, or hitting a spot of sweaty flooring, or as in my case this past season, making a big lunge with bald front fencing shoe heel.) If the loss of control is unintentional, there's no card awarded. If the loss of control was intentional, then that means disorderly fencing, yellow card.

Disorderly fencing encompasses a number of possible (mis-)actions, including, but not limited to falling, running into the opponent, wildly flailing the blade in a possibly hurtful manner, starting before the call to "fence!", inappropriate requests to stop the action, and so on.

[klauver]

If you look at t.87 Paragraph 2 it states, paraphrased:
All irregular actions(..., a fall,..., touches made while falling) are strictly forbidden (cf.t.114- t120). Should such an offense occur, any such touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.
According to the penalty chart such actions result in a yellow card followed by multiple red cards.

[oiuyt]

OK...let me explain. I am taller than most of the fencers in my club. I find that against certain fencers, when I make a parry and am about to deliver the riposte, they are already "inside" my reach and should be easy to hit, but they often twist and turn to try to avoid my impending riposte, and many times end up falling on the ground. I mean, everyone falls from time to time, but it seems that to them, falling is just another "option" to deal with my riposte. Obviously they could remise or try a counter parry, riposte, but in many cases, they just collapse to the ground, and this gets on my nerves - I mean this is a stand-up sport isn't it?

Okay, so slow your riposte down a bit against these fencers. Once they're on the ground quivering at your feet you finish for the touch. Keep your action continuous and you'll still get the touch whether or not the referee believes they deserve a card for their actions.

-B :)

[oiuyt]

However, you are allowed to duck and crouch as much as you like so long as you don't expose the back of your head to your opponent.

Show me a rule where it says that I can't expose the back of my head to my opponent. Turning the back does NOT mean the back of one's head. I can turn my head to glance at the box (stupid, granted, but legal).

-B :)

[keith]

Show me a rule where it says that I can't expose the back of my head to my opponent. Turning the back does NOT mean the back of one's head. I can turn my head to glance at the box (stupid, granted, but legal).

-B

true it doesn't breach the turning of the shoulders rules (assuming you just swing the head around), but most presidents would call halt for safety reasons - assuming you fully exposed the back of your head. You could then be carded for disrupting the bout.

[downunder]

If you look at t.87 Paragraph 2 it states, paraphrased:
All irregular actions(..., a fall,..., touches made while falling) are strictly forbidden (cf.t.114- t120). Should such an offense occur, any such touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.
According to the penalty chart such actions result in a yellow card followed by multiple red cards.

falling itself is not a yellow card offense. Falling whilst making a hit, or potentially falling to avoid being hit (although in my years of international fencing i've never seen it been carded) is cardable.

[edew]

At the '76 Olympics in Montreal, Fabio Dal Zotto of Italy (whaddaname) makes a diving action against Romankov, bellyflop-lands right at the feet of Romankov and sticks him in the gut. Romankov (I think it was Romankov, maybe it's someone else?) looks at the president of the jury and gives that, "what the heck is that?" look. The president awards the touch and then Romankov argues that you can't give a touch for such an action. Touch was not annulled. Apparently, the president of the jury considered it a controlled movement, despite the three points that touched included belly, groin and non-weapon arm.

Now, if your opponent also lies on the ground to ground out the lame to the piste, then you also have a warning for futzing with the electrical equipment to make it not work.

[Grasshopper]

Okay, so slow your riposte down a bit against these fencers. Once they're on the ground quivering at your feet you finish for the touch. Keep your action continuous and you'll still get the touch whether or not the referee believes they deserve a card for their actions.

-B

Yeah, this makes sense...Also, thought of backing up more to stretch opponent's attack out before parrying, and delivering riposte with short lunge. This will keep them from spazzing at close distance, where it is more difficult for me to make a riposte anyway...Got this idea from watching some Bissdorf footage from the China WC this year. He makes a nice swiping second parry at long distance after the opponent has reached the logical conclusion of his lunge, and finishes with a short lunge riposte to the chest. The opponent never had a chance...

[keith]

there is also a close in fighting drill you might want to try (works best on an electric box);

stand at close distance with blades in a natural contact post parry or failed pris de fer etc etc (try different positions).

Have someone shout go.

First one to get a light wins - run a bout to five hits.

The only rule is no stepping back.

As you get better you can learn to parry (or rather block) your oponents hit to get a single light.

[Grasshopper]

there is also a close in fighting drill you might want to try (works best on an electric box);

stand at close distance with blades in a natural contact post parry or failed pris de fer etc etc (try different positions).

Have someone shout go.

First one to get a light wins - run a bout to five hits.

The only rule is no stepping back.

As you get better you can learn to parry (or rather block) your oponents hit to get a single light.

Yeah, I can see there would be some value in improving close-in fighting techniques, but if possible, I would rather find a better solution and just make a clean hit a longer distance. Don't like jabbing away...but will do so if no other options available...

[swordsen]

If you feel like being mean, when they fall at your feet for the third or fourth time, step on them. Then apologize profusely......