Nike & Fencing

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by kalivor

But we do, at least in basketball (football may be a different story, as an 18-year-old's body isn't up for an NFL-level pounding). Why do basketball players skip college to go straight to the NBA? Why to they leave before their degree is done? Because the money they're being offered by the NBA is far more than the scholarships are worth. Do you really think that players like LeBron James and Kobe Bryant jumped straight to the NBA for lack of scholarship offers?

The NFL won't take kids who aren't at least 3 years out of high school. Basketball usually relies on college as a minor league system, so some kids who have no interest in school still go to college to get them ready for the pros. Baseball has a well developed minor league system, and a great number of kids who want to play baseball skip college entirely. Others may only go for a short time. I can't find the information, but the percentage of major league baseball players with a college degree is ridiculously low... and realistically, it's better that way. The players who won't really want to go to college don't have to. I'd say that basketball and football players who only go to school for a few years to play sports are far worse than those who skip it entirely.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Sarah

hehe! Ballet shoes! I need both then. I think that the steel toed boots would take a bit of getting used to compared to the ballet shoes..

Ballet points would serve both purposes! Dancing with Steel toes!

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312...et%20shoes.jpg

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by qatet

If the elite coaches wanted college/university jobs, don't you think that they'd have them already? Who would really look at one of these guys applying for a job and say no?

There are not that many NCAA schools to hire a full time coach, and not many colleges that would be likely to replace their current coach. I don't think most ADs know enough about fencing to know if they could replace their coach with someone better.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yes, but they probably can't afford to pay the sort of salary that'd lure Korfanty away from running a successful private program.

Ed told me that he really most enjoys developing young fencers to an elite level. If that is truly his motivation in coaching, and I think it is, the OFA is the ideal place for him to stay and do what he enjoys. And it's certainly good for US fencing. He knows his value and is quite aware of his options, having been offered university positions. I hope he stays at OFA.

BrianH

[Mo]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Ed told me that he really most enjoys developing young fencers to an elite level. If that is truly his motivation in coaching, and I think it is, the OFA is the ideal place for him to stay and do what he enjoys. And it's certainly good for US fencing. He knows his value and is quite aware of his options, having been offered university positions. I hope he stays at OFA.

BrianH

Ed coached at Notre Dame way back when and left there to be the coach at OFA. He could have left anytime to coach at college.
Ed and Adam have a bunch of kids coming up. OFA has three out of the top four Cadet and Junior Fencers. If a coach is out to make a reputation for himself Ed has certainly done it privately.
OFA should get even more good fencers after Mariel winning the gold. Should be interesting.
Ed is a good, totally decent man too, something that parents look at when choosing a coach that will have a lot of influence on their kid's life.

[edew]

I have to completely agree with that. Of all the foreign coaches around in the US. I would say Ed is the nicest, most amicable person plus all the skills and knowledge of the sport. Others include Slavic at Westchester, Kia at Kanza Fencing, Nazlymov at OSU. Others just B&M a bit too much.

The ones named above, I've never heard one peep to argue a call I've made. And while I believe I'm usually correct, I know I must have made one or two bad calls in my lifetime. Ahem.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by kalivor

But we do, at least in basketball (football may be a different story, as an 18-year-old's body isn't up for an NFL-level pounding). Why do basketball players skip college to go straight to the NBA? Why to they leave before their degree is done? Because the money they're being offered by the NBA is far more than the scholarships are worth. Do you really think that players like LeBron James and Kobe Bryant jumped straight to the NBA for lack of scholarship offers?

The occasional odd exception does not invalidate the general rule: both the NFL and the NBA are filled with players who went the college route. ( I used to tutor for a University Intercollegiate Athletics department. They struggle with their classes, a lot of them, and they don't graduate with honors for the most part, but 90%" of them stick it out anyway. )

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Mo

Ed coached at Notre Dame way back when and left there to be the coach at OFA. He could have left anytime to coach at college.
Ed and Adam have a bunch of kids coming up. OFA has three out of the top four Cadet and Junior Fencers. If a coach is out to make a reputation for himself Ed has certainly done it privately.
OFA should get even more good fencers after Mariel winning the gold. Should be interesting.
Ed is a good, totally decent man too, something that parents look at when choosing a coach that will have a lot of influence on their kid's life.

Absolutely.

OTOH, he has now produced a phenom: a US fencing Olympic gold medal. That kind of changes things. His "market value", if you will, just went up.

I hear through the rumor mill that Nazlymov makes asomething like $120,000 a year in his current position. That kind of money can be a powerful incentive.

[whtouche]

As a point of comparison, and out of curiousity: How much do the elite level coaches around the country charge for lessons?
Yuri Gelman, Ed Korfanty, Arkady Burdan, Nazlymov, any others any would like to add to the list?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The occasional odd exception does not invalidate the general rule: both the NFL and the NBA are filled with players who went the college route.

As mentioned by Prototoast the NFL cannot be used as part of this argument. Until you have been out of HS for at least three years you don't have the option of playing in the NFL no matter HOW good you are or how much money would be available to you. This is the subject of a couple of current lawsuits (Clarett(?) the OSU running back who lost his eligiblity and sued to try to make it into last year's draft (unsuccessfully), there was also another player (WR from somewhere or other?) who was also suing separately). NFL rules constrain this option. If you want to play in the NFL you have 2 options, 1) play in college for at least 3 years, possibly leaving early (Michael Vick, etc.), 2) sit around and mope for three years while your skills atrophy and no scouts ever see you play a down. Yeah, there's a reason all of the football players play in college. Now it would be hard to make the NFL without that extra time (physical maturity, muscle mass, experience against other top players that you'd rarely see at the HS level), but, at least for now, it's not even an option.

Basketball is a valid sport to make the argument with. And there are huge numbers of players that leave college early. Listen to the NCAA coverage next March as they discuss the rare players that will be returning for their senior years. Some people jump from HS (LeBron, Kobe, Garnett, etc.), many more jump after a couple of years in college once they've been seen nationally and have a pro option (Carmello, etc.).

Football and basketball are just about the worst possible choices to make your argument with Inq, sorry.

-B :)

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The occasional odd exception does not invalidate the general rule: both the NFL and the NBA are filled with players who went the college route. ( I used to tutor for a University Intercollegiate Athletics department. They struggle with their classes, a lot of them, and they don't graduate with honors for the most part, but 90%" of them stick it out anyway. )

It may still be an exception, but it's no longer an occasional or odd one. Every year, there are players drafted into the NBA right out of high school. Not all are LeBron James caliber, either -- if they're good enough, they get drafted, no matter what level they play at.

In 2002, 8 of 28 players selected in the first round were college seniors. 13 of them left college early. 1 was out of high school (as I said, that number is increasing). 6 were trained outside the U.S. (Taken from http://www.nbadraftreport.com/2002draftresults.htm)

Of the 22 USA-trained picks, 14 of them (over 60%) left college early, or skipped it altogether.

Sure, maybe 90% of college athletes stick it out, but it's because THEY WILL NOT MAKE THE NBA. They're getting a free degree ... and that's it. Basketball is most likely over for them, as players. Those who are capable of earning the big bucks from the NBA and through sponsorships go that route. They get drafted out of high school, or leave college after one or two years.

Your original argument (that good basketball players pass up NBA-type money in favour of scholarships) is without base. The NCAA can and does support many more athletes at any one time than the NBA does. Also, its athletes leave the system after four years, resulting in a higher turnover rate than you see in the NBA. Because of this, the majority of NCAA basketball players stay in school for the duration. The majority of basketball players with the skills to make it to the NBA, however, do not.

When a basketball player is in a position to make NBA-style money, however, they jump the college ship, and turn their back on the scholarship money.

(Before you note that the second round results differ -- far more college seniors -- I'd like to point out that second round picks rarely last long in the NBA. They warm the bench for a season or two, if they're lucky, then move on.)

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

If you want to play in the NFL you have 2 options, 1) play in college for at least 3 years, possibly leaving early (Michael Vick, etc.), 2) sit around and mope for three years while your skills atrophy and no scouts ever see you play a down.

Fallacy of bifurcation.

3) Play semi-pro.

4) Play arena football.

Not quite as grim as you paint it.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by kalivor

1 was out of high school (as I said, that number is increasing).

Er---1, up from 0? Yes, a HUGE increase. A 100% increase. But a statistically insignificant one. They are still the exception.

Sure, maybe 90% of college athletes stick it out, but it's because THEY WILL NOT MAKE THE NBA.

Like I said, I was tutoring these guys twice a week. I guarantee you, not ONE of them believed they would not "make it to the NBA". Not one. Their coaches tell them 98% of them won't make it, their counsellors hammer it into them at every opportunity, and every single one of them still believes that he will be in the 2%. It doesn't matter what a kid's chances are, for decision-making purposes. All that matters is what he believes his future holds.

Your original argument (that good basketball players pass up NBA-type money in favour of scholarships) is without base.

As is your verdict on it. There! Assertion makes it so...

Also, its athletes leave the system after four years

Or five, or sometimes even six. What's your point?

The majority of basketball players with the skills to make it to the NBA, however, do not. When a basketball player is in a position to make NBA-style money, however, they jump the college ship, and turn their back on the scholarship money.

Again, assertion isn't evidence.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Er---1, up from 0? Yes, a HUGE increase. A 100% increase. But a statistically insignificant one. They are still the exception

I said those were 2002 numbers. They've jumped up to 5, then 9 I do believe (though I'm not sure if those are 1st round players taken, or number of players taken overall)

Originally Posted by Inquartata

As is your verdict on it. There! Assertion makes it so...

Well, my *argument* was that those 90% who go to college on scholarship, and finish with a degree are, by and large, those who are not being offered money by the NBA. Your counter-argument -- that the athletes believe in themselves, and believe that they'll make the NBA eventually -- doesn't change the fact that they don't have any NBA teams banging down their door, asking them if they'll make themselves available for the draft.

There appears to be no evidence that basketball players are passing up NBA money to take their scholarships, but plenty of cases (sorry, should I call them exceptions?) where they drop college for the NBA. The exceptions are not those who take the money, they're the ones who are offered the money. It's not there for everybody.

While we're talking about assertion vs. evidence, I've given numbers (from the 2002 draft) that indicate that most of the top-picked basketball players aren't finishing college, if they're even starting it. I can offer more examples, or go on a hunt for similar statistics from other drafts, but winning this argument probably isn't worth the effort (you never know, though, I like winning ).

Your argument is that all the players think that they'll make the NBA. Or at least those that you've met express that to you. For some reason, you think that this means that they're significant to the argument at hand. They're not. We're arguing about whether or not these athletes pass up scholarship money when offered NBA money. I can continue to come up with more examples to indicate that there's a trend towards doing this, but I'm still waiting for any EVIDENCE that this doesn't (or rarely) happens. (Plus, I'm lazy )

And by that, I mean examples of players who are actually being actively chased by NBA teams -- players who are being offered NBA money -- but turning it down in favour of finishing school. Players thinking they'll make the NBA -- that's nice, but it really doesn't prove anything. Certainly not that they're being touted as a top pick who'll make millions (or even hundreds of thousands) of dollars.

As for your numbers ... 10% leave early, but only 2% will make the NBA? Doesn't sound like many are staying around because the scholarship is better than the NBA's money ... sounds more like they'll leave early if there's any chance of them making an NBA team.

[edew]

Kalivor vs Inq: 2-0 for Kal.

[Victor]

It's sadly amusing that the majority of people who poke around with epees, sabers and foils don't really need anything more complicated than an all-purpose leisure sports shoe. It's like telling them they need to carb-load just before a local tourney -- "Dude, if you EVER get that active, I'll buy your next pair of shoe laces myself...."

[GGK]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Er---1, up from 0? Yes, a HUGE increase. A 100% increase.
Like I said, I was tutoring these guys twice a week.

I hope you weren't tutoring math.

G

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Victor

It's sadly amusing that the majority of people who poke around with epees, sabers and foils don't really need anything more complicated than an all-purpose leisure sports shoe. It's like telling them they need to carb-load just before a local tourney -- "Dude, if you EVER get that active, I'll buy your next pair of shoe laces myself...."

Yeah, I totally agree.

I've tested a variety of shoes, and I gotta say that the older fencing specific shoes are comparable to the low end court shoes.

I haven't tried the assymetrics or the '04 Adistars, but I'm not that eager to at the prices they charge...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by kalivor

I said those were 2002 numbers. They've jumped up to 5, then 9 I do believe (though I'm not sure if those are 1st round players taken, or number of players taken overall)

OK. Do you have a similar source for the later-year numbers? Basketball doesn't really interest me, but if I'm going to debate this point with you I'd like to see them for myself at least. ( Not that I don't trust you or anything. )

Also ( as I say, I know virtually nothing about the sport ) what does "drafted" signify? That a pick is on the team/getting paid when he is chosen? As of the start of the next season? When is the draft conducted, and when does the season begin?

And a point that I didn't pick up on yesterday: with a total of 22 players, the numbers aren't going to be statistically significant. Meaning that you're going to have a hard time showing that these results warrant your conclusion.

Now, I know you don't want to include the second round, but the reason you give for excluding it seems only to be a personal judgement that they are "worth" less somehow, even though the writer of the piece you cited apparently felt that the number of "good picks" was as high as in the first. "They rarely last long" is kind of amorphous as far as empirical evidence goes...

If we include them, again tossing the foreigners, you have enough individual data points for statistical significance. And the results n