the proud thing

[135711]

just in case; i'm 1/2 italian and i have no preferences about color when it comes to people, there are stupid people in every spectrum, i hope we're talking about our fencing gear here. thanks.

[Ben[PrFC]]

perhaps you should read a post before replying to it..
interesting.

[135711]

you are unconscious. read your posts, join the human race, when is the last time you heard a bunch of swells swilling around jesting and saying perhaps. give me a break.
give me twenty.

[Moonitic]

I say "perhaps" too, Ben. Hakuna Matata. Don't worry about our resident mental case. She's just crying out for attention.

[shyHeidi]

At any rate, the subject line of that other thread was a little mis-leading, but for the fact that we'd all already been talking about uniform color, I would have thought it was a race issue. So even if it's plainly not... I think I had a point but I must have made it by now because I ran out of sentences. I hate when that happens.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I think that I would have looked into the nature of the thread ,"Proud to be white." before I went off on its originator.

[135711]

yes they were talking about a race issue, and the stupid part was how it was done, it's sort of like trying over and over and over again to use an analogy for something that you want to talk about but just can't muster it up. how about this:
1. when it comes to the ethnic backgrounds of individuals, do you think there is racial bias in the sport of fencing.
2. do you think that the fencing clothing requirements in any way reflect the racial bias of the governing bodies of the sport.
3. what do you think would be a good thing to do in order to change this, rather than sitting around saying we found white sooooooo boring. i would say that it is stark, but i don't want anyone to start to develop violent thoughts towards white people or white clothing either, just to appear unprejudiced.
4. we could open up a folder about that too you know, instead of skirting the issue.

<small>[ 06-25-2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]</small>

[D'Artagnan1673]

I really don't think that the predominate color of our uniforms has anything to do with racial bias towards non white members of the fencing world.

To my understanding, white was worn because it allowed for visual touches to be scored much easier. Even though we've gone beyond the need for a visual score, our deep traditions in fencing have kept white uniforms in the norm. It is the same thing as our directors speaking French when calling the action. It is a tradition which keeps us close to what fencing once was.

I've looked over most of the arguments on the various posts which the color issue has started. I really cannot see anywhere where anyone is implying or insinuating anything towards anyone's skin color. It looks to be exactly what it is on the surface, an argument over the color of our uniforms.

[lochinvar]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by 135711:
<strong>yes they were talking about a race issue, and the stupid part was how it was done, it's sort of like trying over and over and over again to use an analogy for something that you want to talk about but just can't muster it up. how about this:
1. when it comes to the ethnic backgrounds of individuals, do you think there is racial bias in the sport of fencing.
2. do you think that the fencing clothing requirements in any way reflect the racial bias of the governing bodies of the sport.
3. what do you think would be a good thing to do in order to change this, rather than sitting around saying we found white sooooooo boring. i would say that it is stark, but i don't want anyone to start to develop violent thoughts towards white people or white clothing either, just to appear unprejudiced.
4. we could open up a folder about that too you know, instead of skirting the issue.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Mango, honey, I love you dearly. You must know that. But... you must take a better grip on reality.

Race was not an issue in the original thread. I don't believe it is an issue now. I can't understand why you would think it would be.
I have participated in tournaments where I've met the nicest people who were very good fencers and who also happened to be black.
It didn't seem to occur to them to regard it as a "racially biased" sport, and it certainly didn't occur to me to do so. We were fencers, plain and simple. They tried to stick me, and I tried to stick them; when it was all over, we went out a drank some beers.
So:

1) No. There is no racial bias in fencing that I can see.
2) I think the fencing clothing reflects moribund stasis of tradition unhampered by progress, but has nothing whatsoever to do with racial bias.
3) I don't think anything should be done to change the racial bias in fencing clothing, since I don't think such a thing exists. With regard to what I intend to do to change the "color-code", I already have my orange socks. A white star on a blue mask is in the wings. The rest of you can do as your conscience dictates.
4) Opening a folder about this would be pointless, as it is a non-issue.

<small>[ 06-25-2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: lochinvar ]</small>

[Moonitic]

Yep, another non-issue.

By the way, Marlin Jenkins, my former coach (one of the best coaches I've ever had, & the biggest gentleman I've ever met) was (& still is) black. I think it's very unfortunate to make everything a white/black (or whatever race) issue where there is not one.

A black uniform would be kinda cool, but I think Dale (former coach) would whack me over the head for that.

[lochinvar]

Isn't black sort of reserved for coaches/teachers, anyway?

[135711]

okay, i was just making sure. i've never seen such a fuss over "threads" before and now, and now, everyone is mad at me (waaaa) I do like the whites - maybe i'll do a plum edging on something. okay, getting serious, (and ben, yes i have friends), what do the rules say about the use of color? or nothing, i'd better get a rule book. wait, i'll down load it, and print 168 pages, but i'll bet it's still all subject to interpretation. bye for now.

[Inquartata]

I thought so, too, loch, but apparently it's just custom, and is not in the rules anywhere.

Of course, if you don't quite want to go there, you could always try a domino pattern in black and white...or there's always charcoal ( "It isn't black, sir, it's gray!".

[lochinvar]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by 135711:
<strong>...okay, getting serious, (and ben, yes i have friends), what do the rules say about the use of color? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Read the thread: "Colored uniforms: the definitive answer" in this forum from 6-18-02. It tells you what the rules say about the use of color.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Inquartata:
<strong> I thought so, too, loch, but apparently it's just custom, and is not in the rules anywhere. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Well, Inq, I would personally shy away from using it because of its customary association with teachers and coaches.

Wearing other colors would have no particular significance; however, by wearing black I would appear to be laying claim to a competency/honor/office that I don't posess and didn't earn--sort of like calling myself "maestro" or "maitre".

(And no I do not want to re-open that particular can of worms. I only use it as an illustration.)

[MikeHarm]

I've always thought that people wore the black attire because they kept 'em from the days people used to fence with chalk to mark where they hit and were too cheap to buy a new fencing outfit.

[Inquartata]

I too would avoid black, even though I really like black, because of those same associations and traditions. But you just know that if word gets around that it's "legal", there'll be someone with fewer scruples who will want to see if it can be done. Sigh...

[Moonitic]

Black would kill me. Wearing as much as we wear is quite enough to knock me out. Besides, it would look pretty silly wearing a black uniform with a silver (or any other color) lame.

I did see some guy wearing a pair of black knickers with a white jacket once. Funky!

And Mango, no one is angry with you. Or is that what you want?

[Inquartata]

Moon, why would it "kill you"?

Black and silver is a cool combination. The colors of Corwin of Amber, I think---or was that black, silver and red? If so then it's one of his brothers. Either way, tres chic.

[Moonitic]

The heat would kill me. The white uniform is hot enough with all the layers. Putting black on would tend to do me in.

Sorry, wasn't clear enough!

[Inquartata]

Ah, I thought as much. That provides me with occasion for one of my favorite "myth-bustings".

In reality, black is no hotter than white.

Someone actually did a thermal study of the temperatures of white clothing vs. black. It turns out that even in direct sunlight, the temperature at the surface of the white cloth is perhaps a degree cooler than the black, but---at skin level, under the cloth ( where it counts ), the black is actually about a degree cooler than the white.

Explains why the Tuaregs of Morocco wear almost exclusively black or dark blue robes, and many Bedouins do likewise, I daresay...

Any feeling that black is hotter to wear is purely psychological. Fun things to know and tell!