"not ever review is good" -- The Follow-Up Thread

[dunastor]

What I was saying, was that for someone to say the touche was wrongly awarded in a sabre bout, you thereby say that you have enough understanding about the rules of sabre fencing to make that assumption.

If you don't know anything about fencing, you just can't say that the referee or whoever is wrong in his decision, and you are right.

I agree that epee might be easier to follow for absolutely lay-people where fencing's concerned. Foil and sabre are almost equally unintelligible, but foil might be a little better, because it is slower...

Lastly, how many times haven't I heard the phrase "in sabre, all they do is just run at each other."
I'm kind of getting sick and tired of that line, it simply isn't true. People should think before they speak/write...

[canthidefromme]

Lastly, how many times haven't I heard the phrase "in sabre, all they do is just run at each other."
I'm kind of getting sick and tired of that line, it simply isn't true. People should think before they speak/write...

Well they don't just run... they run, they scream, they whip off mask, and fist pump too.

[dunastor]

Well they don't just run... they run, they scream, they whip off mask, and fist pump too.

Well ok, that's another phrase, and I still don't like it...

I mean as a joke between fencers of different weapons it could be funny, but it's getting old very quickly...

sorry for the rant...

[cfaustus]

Well they don't just run... they run, they scream, they whip off mask, and fist pump too.

Well ok, that's another phrase, and I still don't like it...

I mean as a joke between fencers of different weapons it could be funny, but it's getting old very quickly...

Isn't it though...

[The0ne]

I think it is quite clear that he has no idea what he is talking abought.

He pointed out quite clearly that he thought that the first touch should get the point.

And clubmates of mine and myself have all received the comment

"Did you see how she screamed after every touch, like that, it was soooo un-sportsman like"

~or~

"Oh, it looks like he hit way first."

~or, even~

"What so they just go at each other like that?"

At least in Epee their is some give and take to the sport... sabre normally looks like the two fencers just charge, and 60-70% of the time they do.

I think foil could be to confuseing to a non-fencing audience becouse of the flick attack, even though their is more of a "swashbuckiling" feeling to it with more parry-repost-counter parry-repost-ext.

At least in epee the action is easy to see and understand, for a Non-fencer.

I don't know what foil you've been watching, but in modern men's foil there is rarely a counter-reposte action. . . The sport is simply getting faster and faster. epee would be the best to put on TV because of its lack of ROW, which takes experience to understand.

For the record I love watching sabre, that's where I get my footwork ideas, and it's so beautiful to watch!

[Maeve_Mari]

What I was saying, was that for someone to say the touche was wrongly awarded in a sabre bout, you thereby say that you have enough understanding about the rules of sabre fencing to make that assumption.

If you don't know anything about fencing, you just can't say that the referee or whoever is wrong in his decision, and you are right.

Anybody would know that the point of fencing is to poke the opponant with the sword. And that the first person who pokes wins a point. That alone doesn't actually qualifies as knowing anything about the referring in fencing! Or anything about fencing at all.

[Inquartata]

At least in Epee their is some give and take to the sport...

Yes. There is so much 'give and take' that it forced the FIE to write a rule penalizing inactivity and refusal to fence...

sabre normally looks like the two fencers just charge, and 60-70% of the time they do.

Whereas epee normally looks like the two fencers just bounce in place, and 80-90% of the time they do.

At least in epee the action is easy to see and understand, for a Non-fencer.

So is sleeping. Both about equally exciting to watch...


But seriously, the exigencies of sabre are esoteric. Nothing so simple as poke, tap, poke....think...poke, tap, poke, tap...think...So of course the hoi polloi cannot understand them.

The simultaneous attacks, to the sabre fencer who knows the modern game, have a purpose beyond the novice's simplistic notion that "When the ref says 'Fence' I just gotta launch!". It's all about GETTING the opponent to launch, to commit---and to fail, or to flinch. It's a war of nerves, a contest of wills, and a battle of wits, at 200mph. If epee is an artillery barrage, and foil an infantry slog, sabre is an aerial dogfight in Tomcats...

[sabreur]

If epee is an artillery barrage, and foil an infantry slog, sabre is an aerial dogfight in Tomcats...

Roger, Blue Leader.... I have Bogey on visual... He's preparing...He's preparing.... Launching attack in prep, I repeat, launching attack in prep--AAAAAAAA!, Second intention parry riposte, second intention parry riposte, Firing head parry, firing head parry....AAAAAA it's too late, I'm hit, I'm hit, bailing out now!!!!

You and EDEW are turning absolutely witty on me.... must be post Olympics elation or something....

MR

[veeco]

The simultaneous attacks, to the sabre fencer who knows the modern game, have a purpose beyond the novice's simplistic notion that "When the ref says 'Fence' I just gotta launch!". It's all about GETTING the opponent to launch, to commit---and to fail, or to flinch.

So what you're saying is that basically sabre is a more refined version of rock scissors paper? When did they make that an Olympic sport???

[dunastor]

In 1896...

[DanInMI]

Roger, Blue Leader.... I have Bogey on visual... He's preparing...He's preparing.... Launching attack in prep, I repeat, launching attack in prep--AAAAAAAA!, Second intention parry riposte, second intention parry riposte, Firing head parry, firing head parry....AAAAAA it's too late, I'm hit, I'm hit, bailing out now!!!!

You and EDEW are turning absolutely witty on me.... must be post Olympics elation or something....

MR

lmao....very good!

[MyraTrue]

Granted, I come with a bias, but I have to agree with the people calling for epee instead of sabre. The basic rules everyone thinks they know about fencing apply to epee: I hit you first, its mine. The trouble is, some people are complaining that its slow, REALLY slow, boooring. I don't know. Sorry, they don't telecast high level epee around here. But I've also seen some good fast epee, which CAN be entertaining.

That said, it has almost ALWAYS been mens, because the women like to stare at one another and "dink". Which is why I like fencing men in general.

But as an introduction to the sport, we might not be far wrong to say "here's epee. See how it work? Now, moving on to another weapon that uses rules or RoW, this is sabre"... etc. I think what you need is a good high level fencer/ref who can explain whats happening in these bouts (RoW- foil, sabre) just like many of the other sports have, so that they can understand whats going on. Make some sense of "they look like they just run at each other" or "why don't they get a point, they hit him, even if its a white light."

[whtouche]

I agree that epee is the easiest weapon for an unfamiliar audience to understand, but I still think sabre is the best for television. Epee is boring, even high level epee which I enjoy watching. There ARE protracted periods of time when NOTHING happens, and that would put people off.
Sabre is fast, and after a basic explanation of right of way(which I think suzie paxton failed to give) most touches are evident since it's usually one person attacking and the other counter attacking. When attacks in preparation come along those are also easy to explain, and parry-ripostes are self evident as well.
People don't have to understand every nuance of right of way (neither do the directors it seems ) to enjoy watching something.

[Victor]

I can't help but think of the other "martial" sports and start to make comparisons. A lot of those thoughts are not goodly-formed enuff to share with others in a public forum (not that it's ever stopped *some* people). But in general...

What is it about boxing and karate, for example -- or even saber -- that make them more enjoyable for the general public to watch? It's not "action" in and of itself, because foilists and epeeists aren't just bumps on a log; there's a lot of movement and prep going on there, too.

So when you look at how boxers bounce around and exchange a few punches and keep going, or those in a karate ring doing the same thing, what is it that works? I'd say a few aspects working in conjunction: Gross body movements that are easy to watch, the tactical strikes delivered by those easily-seen actions, and a grandiose sense of finality between encounters.

In other words, it's easy for an untrained observer to see a punch or kick delivered, but not so easy to see a foil or epee tip land. It's easy to see lots of blows being exchanged, but not skinny little blades whipping around each other. It's more satisfying to see two bodies circling each other, and not so much so when those guys are limited to two directions. It's (ahem) satisfying to see a body knocked back from a blow, but not from a touch by a thin piece of metal.

Saber, at least, has a delightfully visceral blade-whacking action that works for spectators. And forgive the generalities here (which will probably earn me a shout-down or two), but the thunderous clash of saber fencers is a hoot as well.

It's the nature of our weapons that renders our sport unappetizing to the casual spectator.