Is no one else ashamed?

[cfaustus]

Ok, we have gotten more than we hoped for with NBC's coverage of fencing recently. Fencing has seen a renaissance of US media attention in the wake of the US athletes efforts and winnings. I am sure we will all have our share of new students in the salles and clubs. One thing however, disturbs me. I am not talking about differences in form, or equipment, or technique as many of you might think. We debate that enough and I for one am content knowing there are many different styles out there.

What truly, deeply disturbs me is the negative press fencing is getting. Take Slate's article referred to elsewhere on this board heroically as yet another ad for fencing. When I read the article, and many others that I have seen recently, as well as heard the comments of many non-fencers who watched WS bouts, I felt ashamed. I do not know Slate's usual articles, but this one seemed to be dripping with sarcasm and mocking of the unsportsmanly and indecorous behavior of the fencers. The posturing that many of these fencers are doing is dishonorable at least. It disrespects the art, their opponent, and the sword. Heck, many modern fencers refuse to even refer to their equipment as swords. Personally, I find the helmet and tantrum throwing, the arm pumping (regardless of whether one got the hit or not) and all the other things done to supplement directing in modern fencing to be terrible examples for athletes young and old.

I know I am not the only one who grew up watching videos in gym class by basketball players, boxers, gymnasts, etc all talking about sportsmanship and how important it is for life inside and outside the arena. There were about 100 other students in the classes as well. I don't think the Olympic fencing bouts will ever get used for such a video. And sure, this happens in other sports, but I am not in those sports... this is fencing... this is my love... it is supposed to be steeped in honor...

So, isn't anyone else ashamed? Or should I just put good manners and respect in the closet with all the other things that seem to be outdated these days?

[noodle]

1) the modern fencing blades are not swords. they are weapons. this is how they are defined in the rulebook. search it. 171 instances for the use of 'weapon' as opposed to 26 for 'sword' and each reference using 'sword' is in reference to the 'sword-arm' or 'non-sword-arm'.

2) i'm not sure what bad press, with one notable exception, you're referring to unless it has to do with number 3

3) all the articles mention the cheering for points which you've declared that you don't like. just because you don't like to do it doesn't make it unsportsmanlike or whatnot. good refs aren't swayed by the yelling, its more of a self psyche-up or a psyche-out for the opponent at the olympic level. can you say you would be an emotionless rock fencing in the olympics?

[Mihail]

Also, it's a mask and not a helmet.

[Army Fencer]

What truly, deeply disturbs me is the negative press fencing is getting. Take Slate's article referred to elsewhere on this board heroically as yet another ad for fencing. When I read the article, and many others that I have seen recently, as well as heard the comments of many non-fencers who watched WS bouts, I felt ashamed. I do not know Slate's usual articles, but this one seemed to be dripping with sarcasm and mocking of the unsportsmanly and indecorous behavior of the fencers.

If you're reading sarcasm into the Slate article, you're being way too touchy. If you read the other author's editorials (they're linked on the same page as the article you read), you'd see how he deals with sports/althetes he doesn't like. He wrote very clearly that fencing is cool. Certainly, the author wouldn't say sarcastically "fencing is cool" one day and "fencing didn't get good coverage" the next day.

Some articles out there are negative toward fencing--sarcastic even. As some one mentioned on this board, bringing fencing into the mainstream is going to take time. We need to be consistent if anything is going to happen.

On the other hand, there are people out there that don't like football. Some people don't even like basketball or gymnastics. The more publicity we get, the more people out there (coach potatoes and talking heads alike) are going to say, "I don't like fencing." And that's fine, because there are just as many, if not more people who say, "fencing is freakin' awesome."

So, isn't anyone else ashamed? Or should I just put good manners and respect in the closet with all the other things that seem to be outdated these days?

Keep your manners. They are yours. Don't be bullied by people who are ill-mannered and wish you to be the same.

You have to understand though that others don't share your respect of things that you know are sacred. In this free country, that's okay. We'll show them otherwise.

[sabreur]

.... mocking of the unsportsmanly and indecorous behavior of the fencers. The posturing that many of these fencers are doing is dishonorable at least. It disrespects the art, their opponent, and the sword. Heck, many modern fencers refuse to even refer to their equipment as swords. Personally, I find the helmet and tantrum throwing, the arm pumping (regardless of whether one got the hit or not) and all the other things done to supplement directing in modern fencing to be terrible examples for athletes young and old.

I would say you need to get off your high horse. Nothing that any of the fencers at the Olympics has done is over the top. None of it compares, in terms of dishonoring the sport, to things that used to go on (like the Nadis discussing who would win which weapon, and what the score would be before the bout).

I would say that you have insulted some exceptional athletes. Talk about disrespect.... Look in the flipping mirror.

MR

[cfaustus]

Also, it's a mask and not a helmet.

Yes... absolutely... remind me not to write stuff on 3 hours of sleep... wierd things come out...

[daeceg]

What happened at the Olympics was much better then what happens at most tournaments-usually only one saberist screamed! <g>

We've talked about loud opponents before on here. To be honest, it did put my wife off a bit-she thought it was a little absurd, and we both laughed when the judge didn't agree with the screamer. So maybe some people didn't get as idealistic a view of fencing as we'd have liked....but an American gold and bronze in an event is pretty good press regardless. <G>

[kalivor]

I'm really missing this unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind you, I've only been watching most semi-final and medal rounds on that Italian live feed (since I've found out about it), so I could be missing some glaring examples from the earlier rounds, or the events that were shown before I found out about the feed.

And what do I see? Gruchala helping Vezzali up to her feet after falling down. Salutes, handshakes, kisses. Plenty of disappointed expressions after calls, but no tantrums or arguing. Fencers apologising or making sure the other is OK (I don't know, as I don't have sound) when there's an exceptionally hard hit, or a corps-a-corps. Nemcsik helping Montano stretch out his calf when he hurt it during the MS final. I've also seen several conceded hits, and it's been pointed out that Boisse refused to accept a point which was a self-hit. There's plenty of good-sportsmanship video to go around from these Olympics.

Pumping the arm and shouting when you've scored (or think you've scored) the hit is not unsportsmanlike, from my point of view. If you're fencing for a medal at the Olympics, and don't manage to be excited enough about scoring a point to do that, I'd feel sorry for you (but not too sorry, as you'd be fencing at the Olympics, and I'd be watching at home).

As for mask throwing, from the bouts I've seen, I count one -- and that wasn't even a throw, just Vezzali pulling off her mask after winning the gold medal and letting go. Again, it wasn't disgusting or manipulative, it was celebratory. I'd have been much more sad if she hadn't celebrated.

[Victor]

re "I find the helmet and tantrum throwing, the arm pumping (regardless of whether one got the hit or not) and all the other things done to supplement directing in modern fencing to be terrible examples for athletes young and old.":

Huh?

Your outrage is almost TOO wonky to believe. I'm going to assume you're trolling for fun, just hoping to get some silly responses.

[CvilleFencer]

I think it is just you Cfaustus. The only embarrassing thing I saw was Keith Smart talking smack before getting shredded by Montano. I am not sure how you get to be that good and never learn about fencing Karma!

Get excited, pump your arm, do cartwheels. It is the freakin Olympics! There is nothing wrong with energy and enthusiasm in our sport. A bunch of old sticks wearing their starched plain whites trying to out bow each other and being so somber that spectators often kill themselves to break the monotony is the problem that fencing is trying to overcome. I thought this OG is one of the best things to happen to our sport (for the US) in my generation. Lighten up a little.

[swordsen]

some folks must not remember the days of dry saber when high theater was in session after each action as the fencers tried to convince the judges and the director that a apoint had been scored.

[noahz]

My 2 cents - several people at the office commented that they were impressed / amused by the enthusiasm Mariel displayed after winning (and also a little confused, because it wasn't clear to them why she had been awarded the point).

Viewers expect to see high emotion at the Olympics, and furthermore they have no preconception of Fencing at all - let alone as a "dignified" sport. It is probably no exageration to say that many Americans didn't even know Fencing was an Olympic sport until a few days ago.

But there is a popular culture conception of "swashbuckling" - and as such they expect us to be doing crazy stuff like swinging from chandeliers and belting out snappy one-liners ala Errol Flynn - so this kind of "behavior" actually helps the sport and makes for great television, in my opinion.

[S. Hunter]

cfaustus - I couldn't agree more! It seems like the more modern and competitive any sport becomes, the more that the sportsmanlike conduct degrades. I guess that a lot of people don't find actions such as you have discribed the least bit disgraceful, but I certainly do and would expect a little more from world class athletes.

(And so the gate to the underworld was opened and the flames poured forth)

[FencingWench]

I have to say I, too, find nothing wrong with arm pumping and other types of celebratory actions. I think one of the reasons it is taking fencing so long to become mainstream is the remnants of classical fencing (the atmosphere, not the fencing style). In a day and age when the most popular sports are defined by their bad boy super stars and obsessed fans, fencing seems uptight. We don't need bad boys--they can do just as much harm as good. But there's nothing wrong with getting the fans excited about fencing by showing them how happy I am when I score a touch (or think I score a touch).

We don't help our popularity with kids and teens by telling them to supress all emotional connections to their actions while fencing. I stab people for fun. Why do I have such difficulty getting people to try this? Because fencing falls into the same mindset as golf--rich white men in funny outfits demanding quiet of their audience. Tiger Woods, meet Peter Westbrook, your predecessor. Westbrook has dispelled part of that myth. But we still need to work on the rest of it.

There's nothing shameful in making fencing exciting for the spectators. They need to be emotionally involved in the bout to care about it, especially if they don't know many, or any, of the rules. So no, I don't feel ashamed. I feel pride in knowing that two women, in my weapon, are bringing home medals that prove exactly how great they are and how far we've brought this sport in the eyes of the American media by doing that.

[Peach]

I saw so much sportsmanship in all the fencing I saw on TV--fencers checking to make sure their opponents were not injured, treating one another with respect--and I saw intensity and passion as well. The sport clearly meant something to these athletes, and the outcome mattered to them. The funniest was when Mariel was screaming and jumping with excitement and referee reminded her to salute--she immediately saluted as fast as she could, but she was like a little kid who had just gotten the best news in the world. This followed a bout in which both opponents were intensely focused and almost grim most of the time.

I felt this put a wonderful face on fencing for the casual spectator, because they could see how much it mattered to the athletes.

That was one thing those silly masks did get across--the athletes' expressions were calm and focused when they were in action, almost supernaturally so, even though they were face-to-face with someone and trying to hit them. Everybody has talked about how the masks should show expression. Instead, they show focus.

[noodle]

cfaustus, s. hunter:

all i'm looking for is an example or two of the bad sportsmanship in question? i'd like to try and understnad what you're talking about?

[cfaustus]

all i'm looking for is an example or two of the bad sportsmanship in question? i'd like to try and understnad what you're talking about?

I shall answer with your previous comment

all the articles mention the cheering for points

In addition, you can not deny that it is almost a schadenfroh joke around here about fencers screaming like animals, whipping off their masks, throwing their masks, refs having to duck the 'tantrums' of fencers, etc. etc. etc. etc.....

It may be true that good refs know how to tune this out. I don't think the refs should have to. If it is done to suggest that one fencer's hit has priority over another, it definitely is bad sportsmanship. One should not do anything to influence the ref's/director's decision. If it is a mere explosion of emotion upon the perceived scoring of a hit, why do we often see both fencers screaming after an action? If it is truly a mistaken cry of glee, it suggests that the fencers themselves are incapable of determining ROW... which points to a more troubling issue I shall not address here. On the other hand, if you can't be certain that you hit with priority, then how can you scream with such confidence? It all smacks of haughtiness and attempts to influence the final decision. Rather, remain quiet, accept the decision. Fence, salute, shake hands... THEN let the emotion flow... smile, cry, jump for joy, hug your opponent, fall to your knees, run around the piste, wave to your Mom, whatever... but until the bout is done, it is not done.

[edew]

Give it a rest. You obviously don't understand the sport (or sports in general) to appreciate intensity.

[wflaschka]

Lee, one of our most intense sabrists, just got Podzniakov in men's team foil for the bronze. High intensity. Lee also acknowledged 2 touches, and picked up Pod's mask wire for him -- and I just saw the last half of the bout.

Generally, there are no problems with fencing. Don't worry cfaustus! It's all safe!!

[electricepeeist]

I can't imagine fencing gaining appeal or excitement to fencers or non-fencers if at every touch the fencers stopped silently, stood there, listened to the referee, and then just went back to fencing quietly, and repeated the routine at the next touch. At the Olympics, it's high stakes. Most people have emotion when the stakes are high.