Terminology question

[jspierre]

"Reprise", "remise", "redouble" - are these different terms for same thing? Or different terms for different things?

Help.

[Philistine]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by jspierre:
<strong>"Reprise", "remise", "redouble" - are these different terms for same thing? Or different terms for different things?

Help.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">From the USFA rules (Rule t.8)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">(d) Other offensive actions
1. The remise
A simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or
retreated, when the latter has either broken contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte which is delayed, indirect or
compound.

2. The redoublement
A new action, either simple or compound, made against an opponent who has parried without riposting or who has merely avoided the first
action by retreating or displacing the target.

3. The reprise of the attack
A new attack executed immediately after a return to the on-guard position.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">--Philistine

[jspierre]

Still seems clear as mud to me.

Sounds like - from the rule book - a redoublement could be a considered a remise if the opponent breaks contact with the blade and does not riposte. But a remise is never a redoublement since the distinguishing feature of a remise is that the arm is not withdrawn. Whereas, in a redoublement, there is a new action (meaning that the arm is withdrawn after the first attack?).

[Jason]

According to Czajkowski, the difference between a remise and redoublement is that a remise continues in the same line, whereas a redoublement is in a new line.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by jspierre:
<strong>Still seems clear as mud to me.

Sounds like - from the rule book - a redoublement could be a considered a remise if the opponent breaks contact with the blade and does not riposte. But a remise is never a redoublement since the distinguishing feature of a remise is that the arm is not withdrawn. Whereas, in a redoublement, there is a new action (meaning that the arm is withdrawn after the first attack?).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">

[haggis]

Hi jspierre

Here are examples of a remise and a redouble that hopefully will show the differenceL

Remise: A attacks, B parries 4 then detaches from blade contact but doen't riposte, A remises to hit in the same line that the attack was made into.

Redouble: A attacks, B parries 4 maintains blade contact but doesn't riposte, A disengages and redoubles to hit in 6.

The main difference between a remise and a redouble is that a remise hits in the same line that the attack is made in but a redouble changes line (hence it requires at least one more blade action).

This may still be as clear as mud but it's the best illustration I can think of right now

[haggis]

Absolutely, Jason. You made your post (and quote an authority!!) while I was writing mine. Hopefully the examples help to show how one looks different from the other.

<small>[ 08-26-2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: haggis ]</small>

[Sabresque]

Redouble is also a common term for after you lunge, you bring your back foot back to en guard position, and lunge again (kills the legs to do it over and over). It's basically conintually lunging down the strip.

If that makes any sense at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[jspierre]

If A attacks in 6 opposition to the chest with a lunge, B parrys (or the attack lands short), and A stays in the lunge, holds the opposition (ie., maintains contact with B's blade) by pulling back his arm (to re-establish leverage on B's blade) and thrusts again in the same line, and this time scores, is that a remise? Would the second thrust establish priority?

[nahouw]

remise: you can reach with your arm farther and hit.
redoublement: you need to bring your back foot forward slightly and lunge again in order to hit.
reprise: you need to come to a complete en guarde and start a new attack.

the difference is a question of how much the distance was broken.

[haggis]

jspierre

I don't think so. What you've described as re-establishing leverage on the opponent's blade, sounds a lot like a counter-parry, so the hit would be a counter-riposte. The fact that the hit is made in the same line as the initial attack isn't enough on its own to make it a remise.

Nahouw

I think that we've already covered the difference between a remise and redouble and it doesn't have anything to do with breaking distance. Both are renewals of an attack but the remise continues in the same line and a redouble changes line.

[nahouw]

Haggis,

from the USFA rules (Rule t.8)
(d) Other offensive actions
1. The remise
A simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm , after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either broken contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte which is delayed, indirect or compound.

2. The redoublement
A new action, either simple or compound, made against an opponent who has parried without riposting or who has merely avoided the first action by retreating or displacing the target.

3. The reprise of the attack
A new attack executed immediately after a return to the on-guard position.

The remise does not specifiy that that it must continue in the same line, but rather, that it is executed without withdrawing the arm (i.e. it can be a trompment of the opponent's parry or a derobement of the opponent's attempt to take). Likewise, the redoublement does not specify that it must change lines, but rather it is either simple or compound.

The remise lacks specifying anything about the distance being broken -- it occurs while the fencers are in distance; the redoublement specifies that the distance has expanded; the reprise specifies that a return to the en-guarde is required to launch a new offensive, implying that you have time and distance enough to come to an en guarde again without your opponent being in distance to do something.

Only the redoublement and the reprise specify that it is a new action -- the redoublement being a new action within the first attack, and the reprise being an entire new attack. The remise is not a new action.

[haggis]

The description of a remise doesn't include the words "new action" but it does say "a simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack". It's not the attack itself, so the action that hits, the remise, must be a new action.No?

The description of a redouble has the situation where distance has been broken but only as one of the options, not an essential element of the new action being a redouble.

The example that you give of a derobement of the opponent's attempt to take the blade fails the definition of a remise because it is not immediate.

I still like Czajkowski's definition best, it fits the bill for what most people (I believe) would consider a remise and a redouble (no offence intended either to yourself or the USFA rulebook )

[Inquartata]

Heh, it has been at least fifteen years since I have heard a "reprise" called. "Redoublement" occurs once in a blue moon, and usually it's me calling it.

I don't know how it is in foil and epee, but in sabre all you ever seem to hear is "remise" this and "remise" that...

[3ngu4rd]

Redoublement: a renewal of attack, while on the lunge, comprising one or more blade movements.

Remise: a renewal of attack, while on the lunge, made by replacing the point on the target in the line of the parry.

Reprise: a renewal of attack preceded by a return to guard.

HTH

[Sciurus Rex]

Ask Edew. He knows everything.
And even if he doesn't know, he'll have an opinion.