Fencing vs. Kendo

[SharpEye]

Hi.

My first post here. Kind of exciting.

Well I'm taking Fencing I/II as my Kinesthetic credits at college, so I've been looking all over for info on the sport, but i came across something interesting. I was looking at the pictures section here (kept finding myself in the Sylwia Gruchala section for some reason...;-P) hehe, and I found this interesting photo of a fencer facing off against a Kendo practicioner! I've been interested in swordplay for as long as i can remember really (I'm 20 now) and I had always been very interested in Kendo. Lets get some opinions on that mach-up, Kendo vs. various Fencing styles. I think it would be quite interesting to see!

[rtran]

I think the fencer will poke the kendo athlete who will proceed to bash them in the head 3-4 times.

[CvilleFencer]

Kendo Vs. foil: Foilist gets a nice body shot into prep as the kendo practitioner raises his boken/shanai above his head and is then whacked in the head. In a real fight both would be dead but the kendo guy would live longer even though he would not have "won".

Kendo Vs. epee: Epeeist pokes kendoist in the hand about 20 times, the kendo guy gets pissed and says he came to fight with swords not to face a spearman, takes up his ball and goes home. In a real fight the Kendo fencer would die in about 5-10 minutes from blood loss. History also seems to bear this out in that every samurai type that went up against a Portuguese swordsman seems to have gotten his posterior handed to him.

Kendo Vs. Saber (actually a practice Mensuer blade in a saber hilt): If the saber guy is strong enough to keep his arm rigid in parries against the Kendo fencer his reposte to the head will save him every time. In attacks it is much more even. It is speed vs. power in this one. If the saber fencer is good with distance and is content to take the hands/arms it is much more like the epee match above.

Keep in mind we were not Olympic fencers or 10th Dan kendo practitioners carrying out this little experiment! The fencer had been working for about 6 months to a year and the Kendo guys were about the same.

[RETLAG]

If you'll look at the different styles (Mind you, this is just my opinion, not the result of direct experience.) The kendoist / samurai uses two hands, does not efface his body, and maintains a very close distance to his opponent. His training and his sense of honor requires him to go for a killing blow on every or nearly every attack. The western epeeist or sabreur, relying on the tradition handed down to him from the rapier, is perfectly happy to maintain a large distance, go for dinky little hand or arm touches, and wait for his opponent to collapse from blood loss. I'm inclined to agree with C'ville fencer that the remnants of bushido which inspire the kendo technique would get it's practicioner screwed. Again this is just my (probably biased) opinion. I'd love to see such a bout between two accomplished practicioners.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Kendo Vs. foil: Foilist gets a nice body shot into prep as the kendo practitioner raises his boken/shanai above his head and is then whacked in the head. In a real fight both would be dead but the kendo guy would live longer even though he would not have "won".

Kendo Vs. epee: Epeeist pokes kendoist in the hand about 20 times, the kendo guy gets pissed and says he came to fight with swords not to face a spearman, takes up his ball and goes home. In a real fight the Kendo fencer would die in about 5-10 minutes from blood loss. History also seems to bear this out in that every samurai type that went up against a Portuguese swordsman seems to have gotten his posterior handed to him.

Kendo Vs. Saber (actually a practice Mensuer blade in a saber hilt): If the saber guy is strong enough to keep his arm rigid in parries against the Kendo fencer his reposte to the head will save him every time. In attacks it is much more even. It is speed vs. power in this one. If the saber fencer is good with distance and is content to take the hands/arms it is much more like the epee match above.

Keep in mind we were not Olympic fencers or 10th Dan kendo practitioners carrying out this little experiment! The fencer had been working for about 6 months to a year and the Kendo guys were about the same.

there are other things to consider. sure, the outcome of the epee scenario above might take place but not always. do you think that with a rapier, you could get inside the right distance, deliver a wrist hit and get out before the kendo swordsmen could deliver his strike?? and forget about parrying too. that weapon is too powerful and could probably destroy a rapier. i think the likely outcome is that either both die because the epee guy didn't get out in time but DID deliver his hit OR the kendo guy lives only because the epee guy missed.

in any event, we'll never know for sure.

[noodle]

this was brought up on a thread on orkut
i'm going to say the exact same thing.

it depends less on the style and more on the person behind the weapon.

[Robert (2)]

Originally Posted by glowstix

in any event, we'll never know for sure.

That depends what your question is. You can set up any sort of cross-sport competition you like and find out. If the question is - who would have won, the europeans from whom our fencing is derived, or the samurai from whom kendo is derived? The answer has already been given earlier in this thread, when portugeuse sailors went to japan they fought duels with samurai, they won convincingly. Why? Well probably because kendo has always been a symbolic sport, the battlefield weapons of the samurai being the bow and the spear, with little dueling. In Europe the sword was never really a battlefield weapon but people did try to kill each other in ernest off the battlefield, the symbolism came later.

But even that isn't really fair because at the time of contact (15th century) European military technology was far in advance of other countries. The swords of europe were stronger and sharper because they abandoned the metal folding the Japanese employed in favour of superior techniques, their armour was tougher.

None of which answers the question of which is a more difficult or complete technique. Or whether the Europeans won because they were less drunk, better trained, or just bigger and stronger.

Robert

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Now, when you take an accomplished fencer, and put him in kendo, let him learn the rules and all, you have a very skilled kendoist.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

kendoist

Kendoka

-B :)

[ReverseLunge]

We've been through this. Fencing kills kendo. The kendoka can't even get near the fencer.

[Grey]

I beg to disagree. Fencing is based mostly on linear movements from what I know while Kendo is a combination of both linear and non-linear movements. Unless you know all of Kendo's techniques, you cannot really put down a claim that Fencing is superior. Fencing in all its right is superior to Kendo simply because the current practice of Kendo (from what I've seen and found) is more similar to a sport than an art of survival as it was last time.

In my opinion if a fencer was to face off with a samurai, that would be different and fencing may and may not win at all. If you look at the techniques and poisture which Kendo stress on, you'll readily understand that it is more of an art than contact sport where as fencing stresses more on efficiency (with or without form).

ps : Do correct me if I made any errors in portraying kendo.

[MikeHarm]

Its apples to oranges, its different rules and a different game. Its like saying golfers are better than people playing volleyball. Yeah, maybe if they had a scrap the golfer's would win because they'd have a metal club, but does it prove anything?

When it comes to samurai vs sabre fencers I think that their style would run into the same problems that the Italian style sabre fencer's had when the Hungarians reinvented the sabre game and the results would be similar.

[Victor]

We tested these comparisons at my club a while back. But people kept dying. So we stopped.

[Max]

Reading this thread honestly makes me sick in the stomach. Assuming this is a fight back in the 1500's when the Spaniards and the Portuguese first came into contact with Japan, I would have to say, without doubt, the victor would go to the Samurai. And I'm sure everyone who posted above will argue with me on this point, and otherwise I would have kept my mouth shut, but this paticular field is something I have a lot of experience with. I could go for hours explaining why a samurai would win. For one, we have the dozens of shocked reports sent back at that point in time explaining that Samurai swords and chinese swords were chopping the European swords into bits. This is largely due to the fact that when the Europeans made swords they simply heated the sword and banged it into the shape they desired. However, when the metal cools this leaves a somewhat stretched, brittle exterior to the sword that can chip easily and does not supremely hold an edge. The answer to this is to "fold" the metal upoun itself, a process that can be done over a thousand times. The sword is heated, folded, cooled. Heated, folded, cooled. Over and over until the sword's texture is smooth as opposed to stretched. This reaps multiple benefits, includin a better, sharper edge that cannot be gained through simply banging metal and a better distributed weight and density. The sword is even given a slight bounce from the very core of the sword that makes it feel lighter and more easily controlled. The Bushido code also would not work against the samurai- The rules that you have described- ie: Samurai must go for the fatal hit- are barely rules at all considering the weapon. One hit will do serious damage. One good hit means either decapitation or a missing limb. If a samurai has to get close for that one hit, no big deal. He only has to worry of the errant head shot. Also, the Europeans who made their way into the Japans had little use for swords in the first place. They had guns, something Japan did not have. And something it did not want. Europe eventually did dominate because of it's guns, which japan sadly adopted, ending the reign of the Samurai. They did resist a surprisingly long time. The samurai art long perished- Kendo is actually not from the samurai but the peasants when they were forced to abandon weapons. They practiced with sticks and the art, and over several hundreds of years, long before the samurai fell, became less and less efficient, and more and more perverted by time and ignorance. I could go on, but I hope I have gotten my point across.

[Max]

Assuming this is a fight back in the 1500's when the Spaniards and the Portuguese first came into contact with Japan, I would have to say, without doubt, the victor would go to the Samurai. And I'm sure everyone who posted above will argue with me on this point, and otherwise I would have kept my mouth shut, but this paticular field is something I have a lot of experience with. I could go for hours explaining why a samurai would win. For one, we have the dozens of shocked reports sent back at that point in time explaining that Samurai swords and chinese swords were chopping the European swords into bits. This is largely due to the fact that when the Europeans made swords they simply heated the sword and banged it into the shape they desired. However, when the metal cools this leaves a somewhat stretched, brittle exterior to the sword that can chip easily and does not supremely hold an edge. The answer to this is to "fold" the metal upoun itself, a process that can be done over a thousand times. The sword is heated, folded, cooled. Heated, folded, cooled. Over and over until the sword's texture is smooth as opposed to stretched. This reaps multiple benefits, includin a better, sharper edge that cannot be gained through simply banging metal and a better distributed weight and density. The sword is even given a slight bounce from the very core of the sword that makes it feel lighter and more easily controlled. The Bushido code also would not work against the samurai- The rules that you have described- ie: Samurai must go for the fatal hit- are barely rules at all considering the weapon. One hit will do serious damage. One good hit means either decapitation or a missing limb. If a samurai has to get close for that one hit, no big deal. He only has to worry of the errant head shot. Also, the Europeans who made their way into the Japans had little use for swords in the first place. They had guns, something Japan did not have. And something it did not want. Europe eventually did dominate because of it's guns, which japan sadly adopted, ending the reign of the Samurai. They did resist a surprisingly long time. The samurai art long perished- Kendo is actually not from the samurai but the peasants when they were forced to abandon weapons. They practiced with sticks and the art, and over several hundreds of years, long before the samurai fell, became less and less efficient, and more and more perverted by time and ignorance. I could go on, but I hope I have gotten my point across and this post is already much longer than I intended.

[Grasshopper]

this has been tested recently on Japanese television. Fencing always wins. But this is stupid - like pitting fencing vs. shooting.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by Max

Reading this thread honestly makes me sick in the stomach. Assuming this is a fight back in the 1500's when the Spaniards and the Portuguese first came into contact with Japan, I would have to say, without doubt, the victor would go to the Samurai. ... but this paticular field is something I have a lot of experience with. I could go for hours explaining why a samurai would win. For one, we have the dozens of shocked reports sent back at that point in time explaining that Samurai swords and chinese swords were chopping the European swords into bits. ....

On the other hand, we had a Portuguese fencer write a post on this topic. He read the contact reports in an archive. It appears the Portuguese common sailors had no problem whatsoever dispatching the Japanese warrior class. Even given the attitudes of the day, it does sound as if the Portuguese were unimpressed. Descriptions of Japanese swords and prowess were tucked into observations about clothes and how people acted.

Originally Posted by Lusitano

This kind of stories were ofuscated by the overhelming interest of the japanese in the firearms and by the fact that at that time historians did not bother to compare techniques and the samurai did not have the fame and aura that they have nowadays, they were just another guy with a sword. For the portuguese, such duel victories did not amount to nothing, that's what we can understand from the descriptions, that are made along other ones describing the garments and costums and other trivial things of that strange and newly found culture.

The post / The thread. In short, nowadays Samurai and Ninjas are cool (and by cool, I mean totally sweet), but the Portuguese got to them before Hollywood.

So the book is still open on the historical side. On the non-historical side, kendo masters have been easily bested by fencing masters in two demonstrations that I've heard of. (And now also on Japanese TV?) This doesn't necessarily mean anything about Kendo; the requirements for the two disciplines are different.

[epeefencer74]

Max, you said that kendo descended from the peseants this is definately wrong. Do a quick seach of Kendo on google and you would find the history of kendo goes directly back to the Samurai.

Do you think that the Samurai became warriors without training? Of course not!! They had to develope a form of training weapon to work with otherwise they would kill their comrades. They used a combination of shinai and bokken to practise their swordarts, bokken for kata training and shinai for paired simulated combat.

If you had said that karate descended from peseant martial arts I would not have disagreed with you. But Kendo traces it's history back to the dojos of the samurai.

[CvilleFencer]

Oh dear me. Where to begin. I am really not trying to pickon you Max but I feel somewhat obligated to point out a few things. I will start with your somewhat flawed knowledge of metallurgy.

Originally Posted by Max

For one, we have the dozens of shocked reports sent back at that point in time explaining that Samurai swords and chinese swords were chopping the European swords into bits.

I have not heard of these reports. I would like to have a look at them if you have any historical links or info.

This is largely due to the fact that when the Europeans made swords they simply heated the sword and banged it into the shape they desired. However, when the metal cools this leaves a somewhat stretched, brittle exterior to the sword that can chip easily and does not supremely hold an edge.

This is simply not true. The art and skill of the weaponsmith in the west and east Asia was vastly superior to that of the Japanese well into the 13th century.

A western sword that is properly made has a flexible spring and a Rockwell hardness of about 49-59. Often a good European sword word have a core of softer steel and through the tempering process the outer section of the steel would be harder while the inside would be softer, allowing it some flex while giving it the ability to hold an edge. A Katana would not "hack through" a well made broadsword or even a rapier if a decent smith made it. It would take damage, as would any sword including a katana from an edge to edge hit. Which is why you don't parry with the edge. ( I am leaving a lot out on the forging process to keep this short)

The answer to this is to "fold" the metal upoun itself, a process that can be done over a thousand times.

If you folded a sword over a thousand times I could break it with my bare hands. When the Japanese smiths folded their steel they did it maybe 8-10 times max. The reason they fold the steel to begin with is that they had horribly dirty coal and bad steel to work with. Many of the best European sword producing regions did not have this problem to worry about so they did not have to bother.

When you fold the steel you force out the excess carbon and impurities. The steel itself has many layers and crystalline structures running through it so each time you fold it you multiply the number of layers, forcing out carbon and purifying your metal. If you fold to many times you have little to no carbon and the blade will not take any stress. It would break like glass.

The art of folding steel came from the Middle East in areas such as Damascus, the city from which the technique is named. The dates are sketchy but this was going on from at least around 600AD when it made its way into Cathay "most of which is now China" via the silk trade. The Chinese said this is pretty cool and started to pick up the process although they often did a San Mei pattern (three layers. Kind of a soft steel sandwich with hard steel in the middle) rather than the beautiful many layered Damascus patterns that the Arabs and Vikings are known for. This technology eventually made it to Korea and then to Japan. Until then the Japanese had straight swords of iron or high carbon steel. The poor quality of the materials they had to work with at the time led to the very thick, almost hatchet like cross section of early Japanese swords.

Once they got their hands on this technology and found out how to work with it some great smith hit upon a way to differentially temper the edge with clay and ash to get a very high surface hardness with a softer spine for shock resistance. One unintended effect was that the sword took a shallow curve as the metal cooled! The curved Tachi and later Katana was born but they kept the same thick, blocky cross-section that made it such an effective cutting weapon. After all few things hack like an axe!

sharper edge that cannot be gained through simply banging metal

NO edge is ever gained by forging. I can take crap steel with about a 35R rating and make you a nice shaving razor with it. You can bend it like a soda can and it will not hold that edge, but it will be dam sharp. It is the tempering/quenching/cooling process and the type of steel that gives a weapon the ability to HOLD an edge. Get this banging on steel stuff out of your head. All smiths do it, and that is not the hard part. The metallurgy, science and skill before and after are the most important.

The Bushido code also would not work against the samurai- The rules that you have described- ie: Samurai must go for the fatal hit- are barely rules at all considering the weapon.

The high and flowery version of Bushido that most people think of today did not come about until the Samurai class was rendered obsolete and Japan was at peace for a few hundred years. Samurai during the early periods, 16th century and before, were just brutal savage thugs with some skill at arms. They did not arrange flowers and think about the beauty of giving their life for their lord, they thought about how to increase their standing, steal their superiors power, how many women they would rape in the next town they took and would not think twice about killing men or women who did not bow quick enough. Others were the salt of the earth, raised rabbits and gave to charity. They were no better or worse than any other warrior/noble class in any other culture. I then to think of them as Praetorians without the shiny breastplates.

Also, the Europeans who made their way into the Japans had little use for swords in the first place. They had guns, something Japan did not have. And something it did not want.

When the Japanese first saw firearms used the official that saw them gave the folks that had them pretty much anything they wanted to buy them, sent them off to be copied and equipped his army with them. During the shogunate ascendancy it was the skillful use of firearms that led to most of the conclusive battles that eventually put Tokagawa on the throne. He then sent out troops (with guns) to collect all the swords except for those of his retainers and had them destroyed to ease the collection of taxes. It was only because of the lack of outside contact that firearms did not further develop in Japan until Perry rolled in and said howdy.

The samurai art long perished- Kendo is actually not from the samurai but the peasants when they were forced to abandon weapons. They practiced with sticks and the art, and over several hundreds of years, long before the samurai fell, became less and less efficient, and more and more perverted by time and ignorance.

It seems you are mixing a few things up here. The wooden sword was always used to practice with. It was not used by peasants for the most part, but by the samurai, who practiced Kenjitsu right up until the early 1900's as a large group. It did go underground for a bit but never died out, certainly not for several hundred years. I think you are maybe mistaking the banning of the common person from owning swords and the rise of open hand fighting styles with the sword arts in Japan.

I could go on, but I hope I have gotten my point across.

Was your point that you did not know much about Japanese history or metalworking?

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Max

Assuming this is a fight back in the 1500's when the Spaniards and the Portuguese first came into contact with Japan, I would have to say, without doubt, the victor would go to the Samurai. And I'm sure everyone who posted above will argue with me on this point, and otherwise I would have kept my mouth shut, but this paticular field is something I have a lot of experience with. I could go for hours explaining why a samurai would win. For one, we have the dozens of shocked reports sent back at that point in time explaining that Samurai swords and chinese swords were chopping the European swords into bits. This is largely due to the fact that when the Europeans made swords they simply heated the sword and banged it into the shape they desired. However, when the metal cools this leaves a somewhat stretched, brittle exterior to the sword that can chip easily and does not supremely hold an edge. The answer to this is to "fold" the metal upoun itself, a process that can be done over a thousand times. The sword is heated, folded, cooled. Heated, folded, cooled. Over and over until the sword's texture is smooth as opposed to stretched. This reaps multiple benefits, includin a better, sharper edge that cannot be gained through simply banging metal and a