Anybody have any idea if weapons check will be open the day before the competition? If not, maybe we can start a pool bet on how long it takes to get the ~250 D3ME fencers through registration and weapons check? I'm thinking the 8AM start time is a bit optimistic...
[quote]Originally posted by sean:
<strong>Anybody have any idea if weapons check will be open the day before the competition? If not, maybe we can start a pool bet on how long it takes to get the ~250 D3ME fencers through registration and weapons check? I'm thinking the 8AM start time is a bit optimistic...
Sean</strong><hr></blockquote>
I always make it a habit to get my stuff checked the day before my event if the tables are open. Why fight the line if you don;t have to? if it's an out of town event, it also gives me an opportunity to find the venue when time's not a factor.
The problem with first-day events is that, unless set-up was done early enough to allow some check in to be done the day before, you frequently can't. Even if you're able to get a couple of people working on check-in the previous afternoon, there are lots of fencers who aren't getting in until that evening, anyway. And if you want to ***** about why the armorers aren't there at 8:30 PM the night before to check in your stuff, feel free to show up early in the morning and spend the day unpacking the crates, testing and setting up 50+ scoring sets and strips (some of which are in such poor shape that they'll need to be soldered before the fencing even starts), getting L.O.C. people trained on what to do and keeping watch on them, and knowing that you'll need to be up at 5:30 the next morning to check in the huge crowd that will be there regardless of how many fencers got checked in before-hand. Plus, it's not unusual for the convention centers to leave the AC off on setup days (when loading doors are ususally left open).
BTW, there is something that you can do to make things go smoothly-- properly test (i.e., ohmmeter for cords and lames) all of your gear and get it in passing condition before you come. When everyone's gear is in good shape, the line goes quickly (no explaining what is wrong, having people make a mad rush to the vendors or Tim, and then having to come through the line again to get re-tested).
The standards to test are:
1-Ohm on all body cord lines (flex and stress the wires and plugs to find any intermittent problems).
Solder on all crocodile clips.
5 ohms on all lame material.
12-kg punch on masks
No holes or tears in any lames or bibs, mask trim and (esp. for sabre) bibs securely fixed so that no points can catch.
BTW, there is no actual "weapons check"-- only cords, lames, and masks. Whether there is a 'self test' station for fencers who don't have their own weights and shims (hint, hint) is up to the people working armory. Most of the tools Armorers have with them are their own, paid for with their own money, and they don't like them to go walking off the way stuff at self-test stations tends to do (nor does the USFA like to keep paying for things that tend to disappear).
Grumble mode off (BTW, I won't be there this year, so this isn't soley for my own benefit ).
-Dave
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I'm not '*****ing' about why the armorers are not there at 8:30pm. I'm just questioning the logic of scheduling the close of registration for one of the largest events at summer nats for one hour after weapons check opens.
As for chastising me for using the term weapons check, maybe you could remind the USFA that it's an inaccurate description of the task so that they might remove it from the thousands of signs and documents contining this phrase. Until they start calling it something else, I'll refrain from refering to it as 'That stuff other than your weapons and uniform that you need to wear' check.
Many fencers DO try to save time by testing their own equipment, but regardless of how well-prepared the entrants are, 300 masks and 1000 body cords cannot be tested in an hour.
I asked the question in an honest sprirt, and I'm sorry you took such grave offense at an attempt to simultaneously make the question humorous. Instead of answer the question, you chose to attack. Do you wonder why flame wars get started on message boards?
Still waiting for an answer to a simple question,
Sean
Hmmm . . . re-read Dave's post. Maybe you were in a bad mood when you read it? I don't think I've ever seen him take "grave offense" at ANYthing, whether in person or online. It's an extremely informative message and I got a lot of information out of it--as usual with Dave, who is one of the most extraordinarily helpful people I know even when people are in his face.
Sorry you won't be there, Dave.
__________________ I'm not anonymous. We just haven't been properly introduced.
[quote]Originally posted by sean:
<strong>I'm not '*****ing' about why the armorers are not there at 8:30pm. I'm just questioning the logic of scheduling the close of registration for one of the largest events at summer nats for one hour after weapons check opens.
As for chastising me for using the term weapons check, maybe you could remind the USFA that it's an inaccurate description of the task so that they might remove it from the thousands of signs and documents contining this phrase. Until they start calling it something else, I'll refrain from refering to it as 'That stuff other than your weapons and uniform that you need to wear' check.
Many fencers DO try to save time by testing their own equipment, but regardless of how well-prepared the entrants are, 300 masks and 1000 body cords cannot be tested in an hour.
I asked the question in an honest sprirt, and I'm sorry you took such grave offense at an attempt to simultaneously make the question humorous. Instead of answer the question, you chose to attack. Do you wonder why flame wars get started on message boards?
Still waiting for an answer to a simple question,
Sean</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sean...responding as you did ALSO is a factor in starting flame wars. Back off a bit. Dave's been there on the OTHER side of the food chain.
Remeber that it is the FENCER'S responsibility that his gear be in working order when he presents it to the armorers for the equipent check. If my stuff doesn't pass, it's MY fault, not that of Dave Neevel, Tim Loomis, Donald Clinton, Dan DeChaine, Carl Oberg or any other armorer I've ever dealt with. It's the guys who show up with 5 nin-functional body cords, a lame with enough dead spots to qualify as a cadaver and a mask that could've been worn by Moses that cause slowups.
For myself...I wen to Nats last year and -- because I'd checked my own stuff prior to arriving -- Dave got my foil mask, sabre mask, 4 body cords, foil lame, sabre lame, and sabre manchette checked and completed in about two minutes...and that was wth him taking his time because I'd arrived early. (Dave, I was the one with the double sized hard golf case with all of my stuff mounted inside).
The simple answer is that you CAN'T estimate how long weapons check will take at a huge event like Nationals...there are far too many people who DON'T check their stuff prior and who expect the armorers to get it working for them for things to run smoothly. As far as the table being open...have not been at a large event on the first day, I can't say if the table will be open the day prior to the 1st actual day of competition.
And actually, Dave DID anser your question in his first paragraph...you just got so offended at the remainder that you forgot.
Bottom line...if the line'e dragging, it ain't the armorer's fault.
No chastisement was intended, Sean (I thought the one smiley at the end would've indicated the intended "friendly grumble" tone-- as always, the lack of voice tone and non-verbal cues in online text can act as an impediment).
As for the scheduling, that is a real issue. George Masin has a set of Excel spreadsheets worked out (based on experience with how long pools, DEs, seeding, etc. take) where he can put in the factors like the number of events, fencers, referees, and strips and come out with a ballpark estimate of how a competition day will run (i.e., when pools will be over, when D.E.s will start). It'd probably be useful to come up with some similar estimates for how long check-in would take to assist with tournament scheduling. For example, my rough guess at the average time per fencer for equipment check would be something like 1 minute for epeeists, 2 minutes for foilists, and 4 minutes for sabrists. Placing an epee event first is actually not too bad a move, since it is the fastest to check in-- and for the overall purposes of running the tournament, you _have_ to start events that big early in the morning to get them done at a reasonable time and free up referees and strips for the other events running that day.
One option that was discussed amongst the armorers last year was training some L.O.C. people to assist with basic check-in duties (and having Joe Byrnes build some nice testing units that'd make the job simpler), and then having the armorers acting as 'floaters' to help out with difficulties.
BTW, the chief reason for me not being there (aside from having already been in Turkey for over 2 weeks in April at Jr./Cadet Worlds) is that I'm starting what looks to be a great new job a week from Monday, with a small HVAC controls firm that looks to be a distillation of just about everything I enjoyed most at my old job.
-Dave
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Explanation accepted and remarks withdrawn... I was accused of 'just *****ing' at work a few times in the past week while trying to uncover some real problems, I guess the word choice just struck a nerve.
I've never had an issue with the armorers in terms of speed, accuracy (even congeniality, which after 7-8 12 hour days is pretty remarkable). If you re-read my orgiginal post, none of the comments are directed in any way shape or form at the people doing the equipment check.
My issue stems from the same situation occuring last year, where Epee registration closed at 8 and pools finally started around noon. I understand the amount of time it takes to run a 250 person event concurrently with a number of other events. It just seems that it would be logical to try to have either a lighter schedule the first day while everyone and their dog is going through equipment check.
Dave, your suggestion about factoring in equipment check times is a very good one.
My apologies for reacting in anger, I don't intend to cause any offence to the armorers nor was my question or cirticism in any way directed at them.
Regardless (and I'm mindful of your statement here Sam...) I will be in earlier on the day before the competition, and I would like to get my equipment (which I WILL have checked prior to showing up) tested early, not only to avoid the lines, but also to try to alleviate them.
That said, I'm wondering if anyone knows if the weapons check will be open the day before the competition...
My apologies, Dave, we've actually talked at length before at a number of NACs, and I've never had an issue with you. Hope I haven't given you cause to have one with me!
<img src="graemlins/crap.gif" border="0" alt="[Crap]" />
Sean
My apologies, Dave, we've actually talked at length before at a number of NACs, and I've never had an issue with you. Hope I haven't given you cause to have one with me!
Not a problem at all--the internet is rife with potential for communication miscues.
Usually, the armorers working setup try to get one or two people working check-in for at least a couple of hours in the mid- to late- afternoon, but it's not the sort of thing you can easily say for certain beforehand, as it depends on how smoothly set-up goes, when the armorers got in on their flights (i.e., were a lot of them on redeyes), etc. That's why there's generally not a scheduled, "check-in will be open at X:XX" time (perhaps there should be-- the USFA might have to bring in another armorer or two for the day before). Still, if you show up at around 3-4 pm or so and ask if you can check stuff in, chances are someone will be happy to do so (anything to reduce that first-morning line a bit). Remember, people getting things checked in the day before makes armorers happy.
Another issue with check-in is that it is sometimes impossible for tournament staff or fencers to get into the venue before a certain time in the morning (on pain of violating union rules for the convention center staff, or else forcing the USFA to pay expensive overtime charges), thus preventing a reasonable amount of time for morning check-in prior to the competition time. I've been at tournaments where the first event was at 8, and the venue people would not let fencers enter the hall until 7 (needless to say, the 8 am start time did not hold).
-Dave
__________________
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."
-Douglas Adams
Okay, after making myself an unwitting abject example of my own point, (apologies again for the whole 'rev the mouth with clutch engaged on brain' thing...) the USFA has kindly answered my question.
I got my third confirmation packet on Tuesday, and in it was a small purple postcard-sized schedule of events, which on the reverse indicated that equipment check _will_ be open from 6-9PM on Friday for participants in D3ME only.
This sounds like a very reasonable response to the problem.
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