Groin Sprains

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

At fencing last night, doing some long lunges, I pulled a muscle on the upper-inside of my front leg... this keeps happening and I'm wondering if this is going to make me hang up the sport, cause if you cant lunge, your up the creek. Any other fencers have trouble with this kind of stuff?

[grotto]

sounds like you are over lunging. practice fast sharp lunges which you can immediately recover from. The longest lunge does not always win and you can injure yourself as well.

[Peach]

I'm recovering from a groin pull myself. The advice I have received is :

--It takes a long time to recover from them. Ice after exercise, alternating with heat 20 minutes/20 minutes.
--If you have much pain, don't train. The advice I received a long time ago when I was running long distances is that it is fine to train through pain, but not with pain. That means that if it doesn't go away as you work, stop.
--Warm up thoroughly before you exercise.
--After exercise, and daily on days when you don't train, stretch. The "butterfly" stretch where you sit with your feet together drawn towards you and knees spread, holding your toes up and pushing your knees downward, is a good one, as well as any others you feel.
--A long lunge is not necessary to be a strong competitor, though it's easier to get away with a short lunge in sabre than in your weapon. Be very cautious about re-injuring yourself, and practice accelerating your attacks rather than lunging deeply. When I'm injured I work on a set of actions which do not require as much mobility.
--Fix your form and develop a lunge which is more efficient and controlled.

My theory is that the front and back muscles of my back leg are very strong and the "snap" of the push-off with my foot angled at 90 degrees is powerful enough to put a lot of strain on the hip adductors, a side effect of the weight training I've been doing. I do hip adductor work as well, but it wasn't enough to offset the pull.

For some exercises, see http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ThighWt.html

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I know that a long lunge is not neccasary, but its helpful. Since I'm 6+feet and all legs, a long lunge is something I could capitalize on, especially a long and fast one.

[achilleus]

I know that a long lunge is not neccasary, but its helpful. Since I'm 6+feet and all legs, a long lunge is something I could capitalize on, especially a long and fast one.

A couple of things:

1) what Peach said. Especially the part about strengthen the hip adductors and abductors. It will prevent injury. Also, if you start stressing the muscle before it's fully healed, it'll just keep happening until it's either serious or weak beyond repair.

2) Spandex shorts. They apply compression, and warmth which reduces your chance of injury.

3) Tamir Bloom worked with Yefim Litvan and made 2 Olympic games. T's 6'5" ish lefty, and all arms and legs. Yefim was very big on short lunges, no bigger than a half lunge, and for deeper distances fleches. A former teamate was quoted as saying that when Tamir fleched, 'he blocked out the sun.' Yefim also worked with Cliff Bayer in foil, and Cliffy drilled this kinda footwork and movement like crazy. Granted, Cliffy kept his long a$$ lunge from his previous coaches, but used it sparingly. So, especially in epee, there is always another way.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

yeah, but its nice to be able to nail them from the warning line... how do I strengthen them without weights?

[achilleus]

yeah, but its nice to be able to nail them from the warning line... how do I strengthen them without weights?

I think you're missing the point. The fleche is a 1 tempo action that is longer than a lunge. If you make an adv-lunge, it covers more distance, but then again, an adv-fleche is even longer.

So if you want to hit them from the guard line, it's easier to cover the distance with a fleche action.

That said, Peach posted a great link, Although this one exercise here. and here demonstrates a way to work the area by using a thera band at home, or with a slight modification, by lying on your side.

If you are lying on your side, merely lifting the lower leg up for the adductor and the upper leg up for the abductor.

[mifencer]

I'm recovering from a groin pull myself.

Peach since I don't know you, but from previous posts I know that you're a woman. I have a friend (female -- the cause of this post) she pulled her groin too. Please watch out about icing the muscle. This can cause some irregularities with your *ahem* delicate system causing a yeast infection. At least that what happened to someone I know. Maybe Armyfencer or anyother with a medical background can agree or disagree with this statement.

Most muscle injuries, take time to heal.

[achilleus]

I should add three things:

1) If you recently pulled the muscle, don't do the strengthening exercises until they've recovered to a point where you won't reinjure them.

2) If it's the interior, as Peach mentioned you only need to focus on the adductor to begin with.

3) Consult a doctor, if it's painful or takes a long time to heal. If you can, a specialist to provide you proper care and instruction on how to take care of the injury.

[Peach]

Peach since I don't know you, but from previous posts I know that you're a woman. I have a friend (female -- the cause of this post) she pulled her groin too. Please watch out about icing the muscle. This can cause some irregularities with your *ahem* delicate system causing a yeast infection. At least that what happened to someone I know. Maybe Armyfencer or anyother with a medical background can agree or disagree with this statement.

Most muscle injuries, take time to heal.

I ain't icing THAT, dear. I'm icing the adductor muscles on the inside of the upper thigh, which is what people usually sprain in the groin area. I'm impressed that your friend managed to ice THAT. Yeek!

[edited to add: I would have a heck of a time fencing in such a manner as to injure THOSE muscles. Thank you for boggling my mind with the image! ]

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Currently I'm RICEing it. I'm icing for 20 minutes 4 times a day, and taking acetamenophin.... and I'm not lunging or anything like that. Also, would it be a sin to put bengay or icy hot or something like that since I cant stretch yet without hurting the muscle?

[Peach]

Currently I'm RICEing it. I'm icing for 20 minutes 4 times a day, and taking acetamenophin.... and I'm not lunging or anything like that. Also, would it be a sin to put bengay or icy hot or something like that since I cant stretch yet without hurting the muscle?

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is a great pain reliever, but most people I know recommend ibuprofin (Advil, Motrin, etc.) to reduce inflammation as well as pain.

Ben Gay and Icy Hot are counter-irritants, I think, and they don't really heat the muscle, just reduce the sensation of pain, so they don't make stretching safer. If you want to heat the sprain, use a heat pack, take a bath, or soak a towel, put it in the microwave, and wrap it around the area.

[cowpaste]

I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing long lunges even if you plan to use short ones. The long ones are harder and build up more muscle. Besides, I've seen tons of fencers who can lunge long and recover very quickly.

As for the injury, I've injured that area quite a few times myself. It does indeed take a loooong time to heal. Wrap some athletic bandages around it and you might be able to do some very light lunges/stretches without pain. Be thankful you didn't pull a larger muscle like your hamstring or something. I remember I pulled my hamstring back when I was 16/17 or so, and it took like 3 months to heal. Bleah.

[achilleus]

I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing long lunges even if you plan to use short ones. The long ones are harder and build up more muscle. Besides, I've seen tons of fencers who can lunge long and recover very quickly.

There is something wrong with practicing long lunges if you get injured while doing them. Either the technique is flawed, or the body is not strong enough to do them. It's neccessary to work up to them, and make sure that the technique correct.

Yes, it's useful ability to have, but not all important.

Like lifting weights. One doesn't immediately walk in to the gym and try to bench 400 lbs. on the first day. It's something to build up to.

To reiterate, if the injury is that serious, get to a doc. The injury could be from technical errors, weak muscles, or something else.

[cowpaste]

[QUOTE=achilleus]There is something wrong with practicing long lunges if you get injured while doing them. Either the technique is flawed, or the body is not strong enough to do them. It's neccessary to work up to them, and make sure that the technique correct.[QUOTE]

Well...yeah.... The same could said about short lunges. Shorts lunges are bad if you get injured while doing them. Heck, any exercise is bad if you get injured while doing it. I think its all a matter of how well we know our bodies. I've heard about coaches who encourage their students to practice long lunges since the beginning. They believe that it turns out to be easier for the student because they get used to long lunges and change to short lunges whenever they want. Of course, if a beginner just plain can't do a long lunge, they should work up to it. I do not think it's that dangerous for a student to try long, slow lunges to build muscle. It's usually the fast ones that cause improper technique and injury.

[achilleus]

Well...yeah.... The same could said about short lunges. Shorts lunges are bad if you get injured while doing them. Heck, any exercise is bad if you get injured while doing it. I think its all a matter of how well we know our bodies. I've heard about coaches who encourage their students to practice long lunges since the beginning. They believe that it turns out to be easier for the student because they get used to long lunges and change to short lunges whenever they want. Of course, if a beginner just plain can't do a long lunge, they should work up to it. I do not think it's that dangerous for a student to try long, slow lunges to build muscle. It's usually the fast ones that cause improper technique and injury.

The fact however is that a young adult (14 IIRC) has a recurring injury due to long lunges. At that age, there shouldn't be many injuries, much less recurring muscle pulls. Somethings wrong either with his body or his technique.

No one said long lunges are inherently bad, just that they are not all important and that it's possible to succeed at fencing without them.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The fact however is that a young adult (14 IIRC) has a recurring injury due to long lunges. At that age, there shouldn't be many injuries, much less recurring muscle pulls. Somethings wrong either with his body or his technique.

No one said long lunges are inherently bad, just that they are not all important and that it's possible to succeed at fencing without them.

My personal theory is that I sprained it in late june (I did, also, same month I sprained my back swinging a sledge hammer too fast and with wrong technique) so I layed off all lunging of any kind until it quit hurting a couple weeks ago. I didnt go on to any rehab program or specific stretching to strengthen the muscle or make it stronger (stupid me) and I just went right back to making quarter piste lunges. Even though my leg was healed, it wasnt strong enough or supple enough to withstand those long and explosive lunges. I'm thinking I should have gone on a stretching and strengthening program once it got better. This is my theory, do you concur, achilleus, your in the medical profession, right?

[achilleus]

My personal theory is that I sprained it in late june (I did, also, same month I sprained my back swinging a sledge hammer too fast and with wrong technique) so I layed off all lunging of any kind until it quit hurting a couple weeks ago. I didnt go on to any rehab program or specific stretching to strengthen the muscle or make it stronger (stupid me) and I just went right back to making quarter piste lunges. Even though my leg was healed, it wasnt strong enough or supple enough to withstand those long and explosive lunges. I'm thinking I should have gone on a stretching and strengthening program once it got better. This is my theory, do you concur, achilleus, your in the medical profession, right?

I've studied a lot about injuries, training, and health, but I'm not in the medical profession.

Even if I were, I couldn't give you a diagnosis without seeing you. So, if it's serious, get to a doc. You're too young to be having recurring injuries. That's for old folk like myself.

I will tell you this though, if you injured it in late June, didn't see a doc and didn't do any rehab, there is a good chance it wasn't healed yet. Injuries can take a long time to heal, even when young, and especially if it was due to muscle imbalance.

[jm_f]

I got something similar but I feel it on the front and back area of my front leg, basically the area where the leg and torso meet. Got it from doing lunges in bad form during a lesson with my coach.

About the stretching, how often should it be done in a day?

And about the compression shorts, you guys say it's for warmth. I'm thinking of getting one of the Under Armour compression shorts and it says its for keeping you cool. Is this ok or should I go for the normal compression shorts?

[Boo Boo]

I got something similar but I feel it on the front and back area of my front leg, basically the area where the leg and torso meet. Got it from doing lunges in bad form during a lesson with my coach.

Get it checked out by a sports physio - some "groin" pain (and other leg/knee strain) can actually be referred form hip problems. I get this quite a lot (although - despite x-ray and MRI scans - they still can't see any obvious problems with my hip... ).

You have a lot of tendons/ligaments and things which go from your leg to your torso/hip in your groin area - could be a number of things... trained sports physios or sports injury specialist doctors are best at spotting what is going on (even if they can't always work it out...)

Boo