Good counterattack

***Craig*** · 08-24-2002 06:56 AM

Here is a good example of how to execute a counterattack.

(See the photo gallery under general images of the 2002 worlds.)

You'll notice that the fencer on the left has their foil in position to make a good parry after the counter hits, which will make this a one-light action.

Cheers,
Craig

**swordsen** · 08-24-2002 02:36 PM

Nice hit. Although just seeing the still shot I would be tempted to call that an attack in prep instead of a counter. I don't see any way the fencer on the recieving end could have had any extension coming on that arm.

**ZEROFLASH** · 08-24-2002 02:52 PM

Fencer right looks like he just lunged straight into fencer left's point in line.

**E-fencer** · 08-24-2002 03:01 PM

Good photo Craig-

Although some of my colleagues would argue -not me- that the attacker on the right still has right of way and would be his touch (assuming he scores before his foot hits the ground, and assuming the counter attack started after he began his action).

Do you know how this was called by the director?

Thx

**135711** · 08-24-2002 03:40 PM

nice photo craig, i especially like the footwork of fencer on the right. i'll say nothing of his hand position, considering that i did the very same thing and was reprimanded by someone in the salle, while i understand it, i see that it doesn't work.

**achilleus** · 08-24-2002 04:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Nice hit. Although just seeing the still shot I would be tempted to call that an attack in prep instead of a counter. I don't see any way the fencer on the recieving end could have had any extension coming on that arm.<hr /></blockquote>Ah, the problem with fencing photos. An attack into prep involves forward movement though, and while we can see that the fencer on the right is lunging, it isn't clear what the fencer on the left is doing. Is he retreating or advancing? Did he have line? Did the fencer lunging take the blade before he lunged?

We may never know...

Though I vote counter-attack with closeout, one light touch for Germany. Can't wait to see the video tapes.

**swordsen** · 08-24-2002 05:29 PM

Hence the disclaimer at the begining of my comment.
Although I personally would disagree that an attack in prep involves forward movement. An attack reqires the action of extending the arm. there is no mention made of what your feet are doing.
Which of course leads to the great question of can one attack while retreating? According to the rules, yes. According to some fencers, no. Always makes for a great arguement while driving to or from the event or eating dinner afterwards.

**achilleus** · 08-24-2002 05:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
 Hence the disclaimer at the begining of my comment.<hr /></blockquote>Hence my comment, the trouble with photos. I'm just curious what leads you to believe it is an attack into prep?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Although I personally would disagree that an attack in prep involves forward movement. An attack reqires the action of extending the arm. there is no mention made of what your feet are doing.<hr /></blockquote>The rules actually do mention footwork. You must be going forward to make an attack.

But we should probably continue that argument in another thread.

**Arturo** · 08-24-2002 07:59 PM

I agree with swordsen, the man is lunging with a bent arm... looks like a good lunge with one fault... he does not have ROW. So the lunge is in fact a preparation for the attack.

2. Offensive and defensive actions
t.7 The offensive actions are the attack, the riposte and the counter-riposte.
— The attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm and continuously threatening the opponent’s target(cf. t.56ss, t.75ss).

where does it say that there must be forward motion of the feet for there to be an attack??

with that logic fencer A advances (no extension) fencer B retreats and extends, fencer A then reacts with his own extesion both hit. you say the A has ROW??

I say that B has ROW...

[ 08-25-2002, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Arturo ]

**fred** · 08-24-2002 08:37 PM

Um...point is, as Craig says, the left-hand fencer should have an easy parry on that big windup (esp. with some good old-school German off-arm 'inadvertent' target covering ;-) So it doesn't matter if it was a counter or an attack in prep.

Actually, since Lefty already has a light, it's even possible that Righty wouldn't have gotten a lighty anyway with the box lockout.

I notice that Lefty already has a 12-5 lead here. I'm sensing that the smackdown in progress may have led Righty to an attack intended more for punitive vengeance than in a hope to score

Who are these guys, Craig, any idea?

**achilleus** · 08-25-2002 12:05 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arturo:
 I agree with swordsen, the man is lunging with a bent arm... looks like a good lunge with one fault... he does not have ROW. So the lunge is in fact a preparation for the attack.

2. Offensive and defensive actions
t.7 The offensive actions are the attack, the riposte and the counter-riposte.
— The attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm and continuously threatening the opponent’s target(cf. t.56ss, t.75ss).

where does it say that there must be forward motion of the feet for there to be an attack??<hr /></blockquote>t.56(1)The simple attack, direct or indirect (cf. t.8), is correctly
executed when the extending of the arm, the point threatening
the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.

Seems to mention foorwork to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arturo:
with that logic fencer A advances (no extension) fencer B retreats and extends, fencer A then reacts with his own extesion both hit. you say the A has ROW??

I say that B has ROW... <hr /></blockquote>And you could interpret it that way. You could say B had line. You could say the B made a stop hit into time, but B did not make an attack.

**achilleus** · 08-25-2002 12:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fred:
Um...point is, as Craig says, the left-hand fencer should have an easy parry on that big windup (esp. with some good old-school German off-arm 'inadvertent' target covering ;-) So it doesn't matter if it was a counter or an attack in prep.

Actually, since Lefty already has a light, it's even possible that Righty wouldn't have gotten a lighty anyway with the box lockout.

I notice that Lefty already has a 12-5 lead here. I'm sensing that the smackdown in progress may have led Righty to an attack intended more for punitive vengeance than in a hope to score

Who are these guys, Craig, any idea?<hr /></blockquote>I think it's team men's foil, the gold medal bout. Germany wins. And yeah, it looks like a one light touch for the German.

**swordsen** · 08-25-2002 01:37 AM

Ok, it says the extension has to preceed the initiation of a lunge or a fleche. It doesn't even imply that there has to be a lunge or a fleche.

As for why i would say attack to prep, it would be because the gentleman in question does not appear to be attacking (by the rule's definition) No extension at all. Hence no attack, merely a lunge.

**achilleus** · 08-25-2002 07:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Ok, it says the extension has to preceed the initiation of a lunge or a fleche. It doesn't even imply that there has to be a lunge or a fleche.<hr /></blockquote>Well, the rulebook doesn't explicitly tell us which hand needs to be extending to establish an attack either.

This is where interpretation and even common sense come into play.

Currently, no competent ref in the world will use the term attack to describe any action that has no forward movement.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
As for why i would say attack to prep, it would be because the gentleman in question does not appear to be attacking (by the rule's definition) No extension at all. Hence no attack, merely a lunge.<hr /></blockquote>I agree that the fencer on the right appears not have ROW, but that doesn't neccessarily mean the fencer on the left attacked. Stop-hit in time makes much more sense, if the fencer on the left retreated.

**Mergs** · 08-25-2002 01:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arturo:
2. Offensive and defensive actions
t.7 The offensive actions are the attack, the riposte and the counter-riposte.
— The attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm and continuously threatening the opponent’s target(cf. t.56ss, t.75ss).
<hr /></blockquote>Ah,yes! But which arm? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

If one has the point in line going backwards, does this not constitute an attack while going in reverse?

P.S. The guy on the right looks like me, well at least I seem to have the same thing happen to me. A lot.

[ 08-25-2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Mergs ]

**JEC** · 08-25-2002 02:58 PM

This picture might be a similar action
<a href="http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-089.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-089.jpg</a>

**fleche4001** · 08-25-2002 07:12 PM

The fencer counter-attacking either has good timing, good distance, or the attacking fencer just has some serious timing/distance issues. either way, they both have bad form

**edew** · 08-25-2002 08:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fleche4001:
The fencer counter-attacking either has good timing, good distance, or the attacking fencer just has some serious timing/distance issues. either way, they both have bad form<hr /></blockquote>I doubt it's possible to make a claim of bad form from a static picture, especially since we're looking at world championship level fencing. They don't do bad form there.

**edew** · 08-25-2002 08:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
[QB]This picture might be a similar action
<a href="http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-089.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-089.jpg</a>[/QB ]<hr /></blockquote>This picture is quite different. Here, the french fencer (on the right) is clearly attacking. The german fencer here looks like he's trying (and missed) to make a sweeping parry.

In the first picture, the french fencer (on the right) is making a coupe attack. Maybe holding his blade back awhiles. The german fencer (looks like Bissdorf) decided not to parry and nail him with an attack in prep (or counterattack in time, or whatever is the technical term for that).

Note that in last year's event, Adam Krszenski from Poland hit many such (Bissdorf-like) actions against Boidin (who is not the one pictured, I'm guessing it's Attelly). Boidin would pull his arm back, and Krszenski would just stick his arm out, hit softly and retreat fast. Boidin had no chance.

However, when Guyart fenced Krszenski, he set up the action that caused Krszenski to attempt a parry instead, and then Guyart's pullback worked. Then, once he got Krszenski flustered, Guyart then mixed up simple extending attacks (like the picture here) with pull-back attacks. Krszenski would counter into the simple attacks and parry the pullbacks. He couldn't do a thing right, and Guyart reeled in 12 points or so.

**Spanky McFarland** · 08-26-2002 06:08 AM

Incidentally, in the first picture, the fencer on the right looks as though he's trying to jump over the other fencer. I was taught, when lunging, to always keep the front foot low to maximise forward movement. It looks like this guy has wasted a lot of time kicking his leg several feet in the air. Mind you, he is French, so perhaps he was attempting to integrate the can-can into his fencing.

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