query re rule with french grips in foil....

[elberto]

can't seem to get an answer when i asked on my local fencing forum (messy one.. I will show corres. later... and yes i am pretty annoyed... ).

the rule when fencing with a french grip in foil

can you move your hand on or along the grip between fence and halt

now The old rule was yes as long as not in an action

i have come back to the sport after 5 years and was told at a recent comp. new rule where you can't and I was warned and I trusted the opinions of those referees (old friends)

Next comp. they weren't there and the ref's there (who fence well and too mind you!! very well and haven't had the break I have had..) insisted on the old interpretation and that I was wrong...

I am confused and I hate being that as it stuffs up my fencing and makes me look like a weaner! (ok maybe just a bit stupid then..)

I tried to clarify by email on yahoo groups in my association but wierd things seem to be happening....

main thng what is the rule - has it changed or original interpretation still in - did I just make a fool of myself at the last competition for no reason? I argued a little with the ref.



the discussion I had in my state fencing forum really freaked me out (again.. they did it to me again... but did I deserve it?!)

Ok a bit (.. only a bit.. cant go on too long...) I have been fencing for years (18... erg..) and was involved in the executive of the state, made some enemies, started a few fencing clubs (which are still going) fenced nationally and internationally (on holidays .. not good enough to represent aus..) - had a lot of arguments and a lot of things were discussed and I was slagged off - some deserving some not - I have tried to keep a low profile for years but I enjoy fencing I guess (the sport not the politics) - but I am branded with a brand of my own making and can't get out of it... probably my fault!? (maybe I portray an image here that is not bad enough... yeh right ... not easy when you can't find out what they have against you.. maybe it was as I was looking to replace the state coach when I was president... )

sorry too little and too much info. and I guess i will get back handed for this discussion eventually too....

anyway

start:
is there anywhere I can find out the last 5 years (or a few more) of rule
changes...

a few I am learning recently sometimes a little too late..

anyway..

french grips ...foil..

used to be you could move them in your hand at any time during the bout
execpt during an attack, but I was told off and advised last teams comp.
(not the one just gone by) that once fence is called the fencer cannot
(under any circumstance) move their hand or hand position on the grip..

is if you have your hand on the pommel at fence it is to remain on the
pommel til halt is called, same for hand position anywhere on the grip..

can anyone clarify this for me?
ALbert
one reply:
From the FIE website, rules as per June 2004:
(http://www.fie.ch/Fencing/Rules.aspx "Reglement technique")
can hold the grip however you like
can modify hand position during a match
not allowed to even look like you throw the weapon
must hold it without the hand letting go, and, in the course of an
offensive action, without sliding the hand on the grip forwards or
backwards
So I understand this to mean that you can't change your grip during an
offensive action, but otherwise,
go nuts. Um. But no chucking.

....
my reply::

thanx for the clarification...

I guess we need to clarify with the referees as they were way off and upset
my fencing with having to vary and thinkof what I was doing and warning me
in a bout - not that I need help to make a fool of myself but where could
this wrong interpretation have come from - I suppose fencing overseas...

I got caught with the "can coach off the side of the strip " rule recently
and was unsure what was allowed and the people who told me this (at a comp.)
were very sure...

nuts...
...............
Right. I'd like to see a referee's seminar on at least an annual
basis, ideally being led by one of the FIE-qualified referees from out of state (to avoid any appearance of local bias) and a regular referees course. I understand Al Wardle is coming to Adelaide later in the year: maybe something can be arranged when he's here, or maybe during the nationals.

I'd also like to know if there is a policy about DTing, and whether the
responsibility to DT state competitions should be shared around the
clubs, in order to spread the skills about. I think Lance has been doing a
great job, but as things stand we might be in trouble if he's hit by a bus...
...........

sounds a good idea - what do others think? (besies Damien and me..)

- refereeing seminar and reminder sheets of some form (most clubs have rule
boks but the FIE updates rules yearly and makes changes) - regular ones not
just when Al comes down - we shoudl be able to run something like this
ourselves - say a broadsheet copies to all clubs or a 5 min refresher at
some comps rather than a long 1 hour lecture which people wont be able to
attend?

- sharing the DT amoungst others - affiliated clubs? assign duty to a club
(as it used to be) - just in case Damien becomes a bus driver...(sorry poor
joke there Lance)
............

now the interesting one::

In an unofficial capacity I would like to say that I find it amazing just how much some people find to complain about.

I can't believe that a rule that is so rarely applied has become such a matter of debate. I also don't feel that is appropriate to use the fencing SA discussion group to slag off people whose refereeing you don't agree with, not to mention actual arguing with the ref when you are on the strip!!! The fencer can approach the ref after the bout to seek clarification, not try to point out their interpretation of the rule during the bout!!!

Some thought has been given to each team nominating a ref for the weekends that they are not fencing. I believe that this would allow better objectivity, but I doubt would stop the complaints from some fencers as it appears all that some people enjoy doing.

I agree that at the start of the season/comp, whatever makes you happy, there should be a brief review of the rules, a refresher etc. If people are interested, however, they are more than welcome to attend events publicised on the AFF site about refereeing courses.

Al Wardle will be coming to Adelaide in November to hopefully run a coaching and possibly refereeing course. If it will make people more comfortable, I am sure that he can be approached to give a talk about rule updates.

Lance has done a great job of DTing this year, and while some of us have tried to help, I would love more people to volunteer to become involved. I think we should maybe even look at organising a DT commission so that such things can be rostered.

FSA is happy to receive any constructive ideas on how things can be improved, and also happy to be approached about anything that people are concerned about.

HOWEVER, THE DISCUSSION GROUP WILL NOT BE USED AS AN AVENUE TO CRITICISE PEOPLE ABOUT THE WAY THEY FENCE, REFEREE OR ANY OTHER KIND OF BACKSTABBING! Not using peoples names does not make it any better, and this kind of behaviour will not be tolerated!

Rules about discussion group behaviour will be posted on the FSA website within the next week. People in breach of these rules will be warned and then expelled if they do not comply.

.................

what can one say .. wow....

[TheArmourer]

Check out http://www.usfencing.org/Forms/ and download a copy of the rules.
(I tried to look it up but couldn't get through thismorning.)

[DHCJr]

The rule that you want is T.16. The rule has not change. For Non-orthopedic you can change the position of the hand during the course of a bout, but not during an offensive action.

[Purple Fencer]

I believe you CAN shift the grip from up at the guard to posting on the pommel while you're maneuvering (say you're meeting blades...retreat out of reach, then ship to pomelling and attack into your opponent's rushing attack).

What you CAN'T do is be engaged, realize you're a couple of inches out of distance, lunge and throw the blade at your opponent (even thoigh it's tetherd to you by the body cord).

Basically, shifting hand position on a French at anytime, no prob...but you HAVE to actually be holding it when you try for the touch.

[edew]

Purp...throw me a bone here

[Purple Fencer]

Purp...throw me a bone here

*here, Eric...get the bone, get the bone! Good boy!!*

What'd I screw up this time? (C'mon...it's me...I KNOW I can always depend on you to correct my misstatements!)