Italian Grip Question...

[Wesker]

Hi! Are Italian grips allowed to be used in competitions? I checked the rulebook under section m4- rule number 6 and I believe it would not.

Note: If not allowed to be used in competitions, an exception should be made with the Itailan, considering Aldo Nadi went un-defeated with the weapon for a generation.

[gulebukser]

According to the board, here as well, and probably other places on here as well. They are quite legal to use.

[Wesker]

Thank you, that was very usefull indeed. Another question, though. Are all spanish off-set grips illegal? Thanks!

[oiuyt]

Any grip with orthopedic aids that can be held in more than one position or that can be held more than 2cm from the inside surface of the guard is illegal. If you can comfortably post with it and it has any orthopedic aids, consider it illegal for competition. If it allows for multiple gripping positions and has such aids, consider it illegal. Grips are not disallowed by name, and given that the names are non-standard that's probably a good thing.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

Thank you, that was very usefull indeed. Another question, though. Are all spanish off-set grips illegal? Thanks!

I have found going by name can sometimes be hazardous. For example there are some when they say Italian, they mean what most people call Visconte. If by Spanish off-set, you mean a grip that might look like the top prong and the back pistol sawed off of a Visconte, with a pistol grip pommel, then it is not one of the "Named" illegal weapons. The one thing in common with those weapons is they make use of a French pommel.

[Kettu]

I know of a coach who insists that the Spanish offset is illegal. I thought it was the Spanish modern, so I was right afterall then?

[Wesker]

I have found going by name can sometimes be hazardous. For example there are some when they say Italian, they mean what most people call Visconte. If by Spanish off-set, you mean a grip that might look like the top prong and the back pistol sawed off of a Visconte, with a pistol grip pommel, then it is not one of the "Named" illegal weapons. The one thing in common with those weapons is they make use of a French pommel.

No, I mean the traditional Italian foil, I believe it has 2 prongs??? ( The expensive Santelli foils, 78 dollars).

The Spanish off-set I'm referring to can be found at TCA and AMfence. The TCA
grip is all one piece, without use of a french pommel, yet they say it is illegal to
use. Why is this? I thought it was the other way around. A fencer at my salle uses an american off-set ( yes, that's correct, american off-set) and the tournament officials would not allow him to use it, because it had a french pommel.

[DHCJr]

I put "Named" in quotes, because going by names is impossible. You will not find these handles listed in the rule book by name, just by form.

I have not heard of a American off-set, so I could not say in my opinion it was illegal. The Dos Santos and the Gardier are very easy to show are illegal. Others are not as straight forward. Where did they get the American off-set. I would like to get one. I like to have different handles for demonstrations.

[Wesker]

First off, let me say this place is great! My questions are being answered very quickly.

As for the american off-set, it is a bit of a mystery...
visually, it would have an uncanny resemblance to a belgian and italian grip. Imagine the top half of the belgian where you place your first 2 fingers and thumb, yet the pommel resembles that of an italian blade, as it is "straight". The
grip is plastic. I have seen one in a very old book some time ago, suggesting that it and the belgian were possibly the fisrt pistol grips produced. At my salle, in the 70's, a man came up to the fencer who now currently has the american off-set, and simply told him of what it is called, and left. Short story but true. Many fencing stores suggest that the grip never existed, but perhaps I can take a picture of it the next time I visit my salle.

[S. Hunter]

Would the american offset be the same as the american grip mentioned here? And a comment on the rules of the grips: The FIE rules on the subject are odd, as it is possible to hold almost any grip that is longer than 2cm, further than 2cm. I also do not understand why italian grips are legal: (Though I am learning italian), It seems obvious that the italian grip would be illegal under the current fie rules.

[damianip]

Would the american offset be the same as the american grip mentioned here? And a comment on the rules of the grips: The FIE rules on the subject are odd, as it is possible to hold almost any grip that is longer than 2cm, further than 2cm. I also do not understand why italian grips are legal: (Though I am learning italian), It seems obvious that the italian grip would be illegal under the current fie rules.

I was told that the Italian grip is legal if one uses a strap, and the strap fixes the hand so that the thumb is at the correct distance from the bell.

Paolo

[DHCJr]

No, that is different and it is the one I have known. The one in question has a French Pommel. The American is a Belgium with the bottom large prong taken off.

You are right by saying you can hold a weapon further back, but can you with the same control. For example, you could hold a Belgium by the back of the handle, but could you fence with it. On the other hand the Gardiere with its multiple indentions and the French pommel to help, you still have the same control. That is the difference.

There is no requirement for the strap. The Italian, if held properly, would force you to hold it within the rules. Yes you could hold it at the back, but all you would have is a skinny French.

[S. Hunter]

This american grip sounds incredibly interresting. It would be very nice to have a picture for clarification, even though it sounds obviously illegal. As another additional question: Am I correct in assuming that if you post with an italia grip, it becomes illegal? I was told it was, but by acknowledging that it would be illegal to post with it, wouldn't that also make it illegal by nature. (I am typing this as I am posting with my italian epee, and it is actually pretty comfortable which is what raised the question)

[DHCJr]

You can post with a Belgium, German, Visconte. It is illegal, but you can physically do it, but not with the same control. This is the same with an Italian. They are all legal handles, up to a point.

One of these handles I mentioned that would be legal for me, but would not legal for many of the ladies and children. The reason for this is the size of my hands. When I hold a weapon made for me in the legal fixed position, my thumb is within 2cm, while for others because of smaller hands would make it illegal, because their thumb was not fixed within 2cm.

This is why a weapon can pass control and the referee can call the handle illegal.

As I said above, it is having the same control. The Italian are legal, but as been noted many times, it is not used in high level competitions. Note the lack of true Italian FIE blades.

[Wesker]

Let me tell you something. The rules are vague and misleading. I simply LOATHE the Visconti, in all of it's hell-like forms, yet I am forced to use it over Belgian, because I have difficulties purchasing one that does not break (hehe). Anyway, I will take some pictures of the grip tomorrow.

[oiuyt]

Let me tell you something. The rules are vague and misleading. I simply LOATHE the Visconti, in all of it's hell-like forms, yet I am forced to use it over Belgian, because I have difficulties purchasing one that does not break (hehe). Anyway, I will take some pictures of the grip tomorrow.

You routinely break grips?!?!?!?! I mean I know they're breakable, I've seen it happen, I've even done it once. But routinely? Wow. Do you buy plasitc belgians and metal viscontis? I just don't get why one would break so much more often, almost regardless of what you're doing with it.

Clearly the rules aren't the best where it comes to defining able to be held in only one position. I've used a lefty pistol grip (from context it should be obvious, but in case it isn't, I'm right handed and I used said lefty weapon in my right hand) without excess problems. Clearly not the intended way for the weapon to be gripped. As with many other rules some interpretation is required. Treat the rule more as "intended to be able to be used in only one position" or something similar and you'll be better off.

-B :)

[Wesker]

You routinely break grips?!?!?!?! I mean I know they're breakable, I've seen it happen, I've even done it once. But routinely? Wow. Do you buy plasitc belgians and metal viscontis? I just don't get why one would break so much more often, almost regardless of what you're doing with it.

Clearly the rules aren't the best where it comes to defining able to be held in only one position. I've used a lefty pistol grip (from context it should be obvious, but in case it isn't, I'm right handed and I used said lefty weapon in my right hand) without excess problems. Clearly not the intended way for the weapon to be gripped. As with many other rules some interpretation is required. Treat the rule more as "intended to be able to be used in only one position" or something similar and you'll be better off.

-B

Yes, I tend to use aluminum grips because plastic ones break when you fence suicidal fencers at my salle...I mean, they literally leap lunge at me even though they know they're in no position to parry after I reposte their attack. Also, besides TCA, where is the cheapest place I can purchase an italian grip?
Thanks.

[S. Hunter]

Also, besides TCA, where is the cheapest place I can purchase an italian grip?

TCA is pretty cheap for one (But if you just don't like Triplette.....) Santelli has a practice for $72, The fencing post has one for 75. I can't vouch for either, but I have the fencing post's electric italian foil, and though I've yet to fence with it (Lame is on order, old one doesn't fit) the balance is great. It is also very advisable to purchase the wrist strap from the fencing post if you are going to learn true italian style, and also the book 'The Science of Fencing' by Gaugler. Of course, thats all really optional, and if you like the foil I'd heavily suggest the strap and the book.

If you have a foil and just want the grip, order one of the italian guards and a plastic italian grip and pommel. I believe the one from santelli comes with a ricasso, but you also need a false ricasso for it.

[Wesker]

Btw, can I use a TCA italian guard and blade, with the grip and pommel of a Santelli?

[S. Hunter]

Btw, can I use a TCA italian guard and blade, with the grip and pommel of a Santelli?

Almost certainly - There is a 90% chance that all parts save the blade were made by Negrini anyway. Be warned though, from what I hear it is incredibly difficult to put together a false ricasso weapon and it is probably advisable to order one assembled.