Wireless sabre at the World Championships

**damianip** · 08-23-2002 09:38 AM

So,

What does everyone think?

Looks like robots fencing to me. (I always felt that way about sabre anyway).

<a href="http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg</a>

Paolo

[ 08-26-2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: damianip ]

**Philistine** · 08-23-2002 10:02 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
So,

What does everyone think?

Looks like robots fencing to me. (I always fely that way about sabre anyway).

<a href="http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg</a>

Paolo<hr /></blockquote>Nifty.

How do they do lockouts?

How long does it take to "set-up" for each fencer? (It's not a permanent alteration to the mask, I assume?

--Philistine

**135711** · 08-23-2002 04:21 PM

it looks like a great photograph

**Inquartata** · 08-23-2002 05:35 PM

One less connection to earth is a GOOD thing in sabre!

But I'd have to try it before I could give an opinion, really.

**neevel** · 08-25-2002 08:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
So,

What does everyone think?

Looks like robots fencing to me. (I always fely that way about sabre anyway).

<a href="http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg</a>

Paolo<hr /></blockquote><img src="http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-066.jpg" alt=" - " />

Exterminate! Exterminate! All non-sabrists shall be exterminated!

**mfp** · 08-25-2002 09:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by neevel:


Exterminate! Exterminate! All non-sabrists shall be exterminated! <hr /></blockquote>By Your Command!

Hmmn. Anyone who gets the Cylon/Battlestar Galactica reference is really showing their age.

[ oops!

]

**epeemike81** · 08-26-2002 04:43 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mfp:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by neevel:


Exterminate! Exterminate! All non-sabrists shall be exterminated! <hr /></blockquote>By Your Command!

Hmmn. Anyone who gets the Cylon/Battlestar Galactica reference is really showing their age.

[ oops!

]<hr /></blockquote>Not true! I don't have much age to show and I got the reference. I'm just showing my geekiness!

-m

**neevel** · 08-26-2002 09:25 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mfp:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by neevel:


Exterminate! Exterminate! All non-sabrists shall be exterminated! <hr /></blockquote>By Your Command!

Hmmn. Anyone who gets the Cylon/Battlestar Galactica reference is really showing their age.

[ oops!

]<hr /></blockquote>BZZT! The reference is even older and geekier than Battlestar Galaxative (and yet also outlasted it by a good 10 years).

**epeemike81** · 08-26-2002 09:43 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by neevel:
BZZT! The reference is even older and geekier than Battlestar Galaxative (and yet also outlasted it by a good 10 years).<hr /></blockquote>.
Doctor Who??

-m

**Inquartata** · 08-26-2002 06:31 PM

Doctor Who's on first?

**Purple Fencer** · 08-26-2002 07:33 PM

REAL Daleks don't climb stairs...they level the building!

Want a jelly baby?

**Inquartata** · 08-26-2002 08:15 PM

No. And don't call me "baby".

**fred** · 08-26-2002 08:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
So,

What does everyone think?

Looks like robots fencing to me. (I always felt that way about sabre anyway).

Paolo<hr /></blockquote>Looks like fencers with no wires to me...how's it work? Would it work for foil? Will it take Russian hackers more than six months to completely 0wn the FIE circuit? ;-)

**oiuyt** · 08-27-2002 07:05 AM

You have a device which measures the capacitance on your side (your weapon, cord, the little box which sits in the small of your back which you can't see in the pictures, anything else in your scoring circuit). When the amount of metal in that group jumps suddenly it's because of one of several things -- you've hit your opponent's lame/mask, you've hit your opponent's weapon, or both. Depending on which of these and in what order, the system determines whether you had a valid hit (you've hit the lame/mask). When that happens the light in your mask go on.

Currently it only works in sabre.

There's no wireless portion of the system. The FIE has no interest in attempting to have a wireless solution, what they're interested in are reelless systems. Because there's no wireless portion there shouldn't be anything which spectators can do to affect the system (any more than they currently can with reeled systems anyway).

-B

**darius** · 08-27-2002 07:33 AM

If the system isn't wireless, how do the signals get to the box? Or are the only lights the ones in the fencers' masks?

I guess the timing isn't a big deal, because the little units on the fencers' heads will could easily disallow hits X milliseconds after they've been hit.

Why not wireless? Bluetooth is considered secure enough that the US military is using it for embedded devices; couldn't some of the same capacitance principles work for foil?

darius (!= "engineer")

**oiuyt** · 08-27-2002 09:04 AM

For whatever reason the FIE has decided as a policy (at least for now) not to attempt any wireless solution. The reelless system pictured does NOT broadcast the results to a more standard box, the fencers carry the "box" with them.

As to why the FIE doesn't want to investigate wireless systems I don't have any information, merely speculation which may or may not be the actual reasons. The possibility of jamming or spoofing, national differences in what spectrum ranges are available for private use, inter-box interference, etc. Are any of these the actual reason? I'm sure I don't know.

Seems to me that a very similar system should be workable in foil, with the addition of circuit detection for when the tip is depressed (in order to get touches which DON'T significantly change the capacitance). So I don't know WHY the FIE doesn't consider this to be currently unacceptable for foil, I merely know that they do. Elimination of the white light would make this even easier as the foil circuit becomes more similar to the sabre circuit. Additionally, only a single set of lights in each mask would make THAT an easier issue.

Grounding becomes an issue in epee, and to a much lesser extent in foil (when's the last time you hit a foil bell?). Additionally in epee the lockout timing becomes a huge issue. If the box carried by each fencer don't communicate with each other, how do you enforce the 1/25 of a second lockout?

The timing is still a big deal, your system doesn't know when you've been hit, merely when you hit. In foil and sabre the lockouts are long enough that it isn't a big issue.

All of my information comes from one of two sources. A) talking with Dan DeChaine, B) watching a couple of fencers play with the system in Peabody this past May. All of the information about the inner workings of the FIE and the fact that they want it referred to as reelless rather than wireless of course comes from Dan. How the system works, likewise comes from Dan. General impressions of it comes from my observations in person, although those were limited by the fact that I was, at the time, mostly occupied getting myself prepared to fence.

**fred** · 08-27-2002 11:24 AM

Interesting. i wouldn't think it would be a lot harder to add tip detect, except for the foil circuit being normally closed. Maybe the current draw is too high for reasonable sized batteries.

I kind of like the lights being on the fencer, it's easier on everybody. Would be really cool to have a HUD in the mask with the current score and time remaining...maybe a heart-rate monitor...IR target sensor with range to opponent...instant messages from fans......

**I see dead people** · 08-27-2002 10:07 PM

are those lights in the mask? look like paint to me.

**sabreur** · 08-27-2002 11:23 PM

Well, I for one think it is very cool. The fewer wires, the better. No reels, no tethers... nice. They must have pretty good confidence in the system to use it at the WCs.

Cheers, MR

**DHCJr** · 08-30-2002 05:43 PM

1) The time to set up each fencer is a half-hour to 45 minutes. From Ted Li.

2) The machines have to be babied. The factory sends one technician per machine to monitor them.

3) There is a wireless part. There are extension lights which are driven by the hits, but they are only for the audience, not for the director. The lights in the masks are the deciding factor.

4) Foil has white lights and Epee has lockout making both more difficult.

5) Yes, the FIE is still in the 50's. They think if they have a wireless system, someone could control it from the stands. I have been talking with the makers of wireless systems used at the Olympics for Kendo. They have never had anyone able to spoof the system. We are talking a different culture, Japanese with their electronic and European which still has an electrical system so unsafe, we use batteries at international competitions.

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