Traditional Student Fraternity Fencing

[Stylothek]

Hi,
since I'm looking into this kind of fencing, I was interested, if anyone from the States would know it. A few hundred years ago student fraternities everywhere in Europe started putting an end to classical duelling and came up with this new kind of fencing of which I do not know the correct English term. There are two different kinds of these fraternities, once the non-fencing ("nichtschlagend") and the fencing ("schlagend") ones. The fencing fraternities test their new members through a fight with a weapon called "Glockenschläger" or "Korbschläger", a weapon derived from the duellist sabre. Both fencers are protected by heavy leather gear almost everywhere on their body as they fence with sharp weapons. But only almost everywhere.... The face is only protected by an iron plate on the nose, mesh goggles before the eyes and leather ear protectors. Chin, cheeks, forehead and head are not protected at all. Similar to sabre fencing you can only score by hitting the opponent and not "poking" him. Also, there is no footwork at all: The two fencers have to maintain an exact distance to each other and do not move with their feet at all. Main target zone is the unprotected part of the head which is defended by parries without moving back at all. Of course, there is and always was a chance of sustaining a scar, a so called "Schmiß". This scar used to be a symbol of status and a man bearing a such scar was respected. Nowadays only few students are wounded, none of them severly, since there are alway many helpers ("Sekundandten") and a doctor ("Mensurarzt") present. Any student can apply to get into these fraternities, yet not everybody is taken. Once your in, your in it for lifetime (if you want to). I just wanted to know if you Americans (and also other nationalities) know this kind of tradition, since I was thinking of starting as a new member in high school and then becoming a full member when I'm a student, as some of the fraternities offer.
-til

[greenchick]

I just wanted to know if you Americans (and also other nationalities) know this kind of tradition, since I was thinking of starting as a new member in high school and then becoming a full member when I'm a student, as some of the fraternities offer.

I'd say that it's known among fencers and people who are interested in swordplay in general, insofar as it's been described in a lot of books and articles, but I've never heard of it actually being practiced over here.

[jBirch]

Schlager fencing. Quite illegal in North America and the honour of a schlager scar doesn't matter much culturally here. And the flower-children will eat you up.

Many of the military academies have honour duels fought in secret, though the penalty of being caught "officially" is usually expulsion/jail-time.

Hope this helps.

[Stylothek]

Schlager fencing. Quite illegal in North America and the honour of a schlager scar doesn't matter much culturally here. And the flower-children will eat you up.

Many of the military academies have honour duels fought in secret, though the penalty of being caught "officially" is usually expulsion/jail-time.

Hope this helps.

Duelling is illegal over here aswell. Up until 1945 an "honor court" could give permission for a duel, duelling without this permission has been illegal since the 19th century. I'm sorry, if I didn't formulate clearly enough: A schlager scar doesn't have the same meaning, it used to have then, today.
And why would the hippies eat us? It's not like anyone is going to get killed and there is no relation to the military.

[esskreemr]

I believe it's called Mensur in English. I believe such scars used to cause a swooning in the ladies pre-World War II. Here in America, it would probably cause jail time...

[schlager7]

I believe another reason the German fraternity fencing/duelling is not considered illegal is that the point of the encounter may result in a wound but there is no intent to kill or cripple.

Frankly, worse injuries occur as a matter of course in one summer of American high school football.

[Epee_Pox]

Don't have Mensur here. And a dueling scar tends to be associated with either cartoonish villains or folks on the losing end of a drunken bar fight. Definitely not a mark of respect.

On a side note, what exactly is so awe-inspring about having a dueling scar? All it shows is you got spanked. A long-time schlager fencer without any scars, now that's impressive. But how would anyone outside the fraternity know?

[schlager7]

The fraternity duel is neither a true fencing match nor a duel. Rather, it is a rite of passage. The point being to face danger, stress, adversity and pressure without flinching. The scar, or schmiss, simply served as a badge that its owner had done just that.

[cfaustus]

Don't have Mensur here. And a dueling scar tends to be associated with either cartoonish villains or folks on the losing end of a drunken bar fight. Definitely not a mark of respect.

On a side note, what exactly is so awe-inspring about having a dueling scar? All it shows is you got spanked. A long-time schlager fencer without any scars, now that's impressive. But how would anyone outside the fraternity know?

Actually, as Mensuren originated at the Universities, a scar was at one time an outward sign that one was educated. For instance, Nietzsche wanted one to show that he was an academic. (I am told this by my girlfriend who is avidly interested in Nietzsche and has read several biographies on him as well as his works.)

[Larrison]

I've seen a modified form of Schlager done at Fencing parties in the past. This is done by attaching small balloons (make sure they are blown fully up) at the forehead and both cheeks of a standard saber mask. Then the two fencers stand almost bell-to-bell and slug it out, sometimes with a beer mug placed on the ground behind their back foot to show they will not retreat. First one to have a balloon popped loses.

A lot less blood in this version.

[Epee_Pox]

Ah! I did not know that, CF. Not sure how many folks nowadays look for a scar when trying to assess whether someone went to college. Usually a State U. t-shirt or a white-collar job is a better indicator.

Of course, Nietzsche is pietzsche.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Chris Amberger will be teaching it at this years WMA in October.
----------------------------------------------------------
Das Deutsche Hiebfechten

A practical introduction to Das Deutsche Hiebfechten (German Cut Fencing)

The origins, parallels, and modern practice of German Schlager fencing from its beginnings in the late 18th century to today, with a hands-on introduction to the principles of "Covered Fencing" á la F.A.W.L. Roux.

Attendees bringing Schlager-bladed cutting swords with bell-guards or basket-hilts, sturdy padding for the lower arm, an under-plastron, and a regulation mask are invited to test out the practical aspects of the system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris

[cfaustus]

Chris Amberger will be teaching it at this years WMA in October.
----------------------------------------------------------
Das Deutsche Hiebfechten

A practical introduction to Das Deutsche Hiebfechten (German Cut Fencing)

The origins, parallels, and modern practice of German Schlager fencing from its beginnings in the late 18th century to today, with a hands-on introduction to the principles of "Covered Fencing" á la F.A.W.L. Roux.

Attendees bringing Schlager-bladed cutting swords with bell-guards or basket-hilts, sturdy padding for the lower arm, an under-plastron, and a regulation mask are invited to test out the practical aspects of the system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris

I am still waiting for the Paukdegen I bought on ebay to arrive... It was sent months ago via ship... maybe it will be here by October... right...

[Twinkletoes]

I'm sort of surprised that people actually do "schlager" fencing nowadays.

It takes guts to face a Sharp even if well padded and possibly with small
balloons about your head.

Interestingly, it seems to make the partial leap from sport fencing to classical
fencing by adding the element of potential injury to the equation.

Being new to the boards I've noted a division between the sport community and the classical fencers.Often respectfull but overall polarised.

This "schlager" fencing seems to bridge the gap between the two: More dangerous hence thrilling than sport fencing,less drastic than a true duel, unpadded, with Sharps.

Can this be the future of fencing? A sort of reality based extreme sport that
people would watch on TV because it's kinda dangerous and exciting?

Well,if you think FOX ... anything is possible.

Marc

[schlager7]

Of course, once again, it really is not a sport, anymore than bullfighting. Both are more akin to cultural rituals. (Does anyone think the Sioux Sun Dance is a sport?)

I recall taking a course which covered rapier, rapier-and-dagger and rapier-with-cloak. A fellow student, after following some basic instruction fairly attentively, asked, "How do you keep score?"

[cfaustus]

I recall taking a course which covered rapier, rapier-and-dagger and rapier-with-cloak. A fellow student, after following some basic instruction fairly attentively, asked, "How do you keep score?"

Did anyone show him?