Do you talk to the referee

[Joe biebel]

Aside from the "oh noooos" or "yessss" when a referee makes a call during a match, do you talk to the referee? Before, during, or after a match? If you speak to them after a match, do they appreciate your "input"?

[Inquartata]

1) Sometimes, but seldom extensively---don't want to be seen as "sucking up", that can have deleterious effects on the judgements....

2) Very seldom, unless I manage to say something humorous. Questions and discussions just seem to be taken as wastes of their already-short time.
( Refs tend to be either harried or tired, often both. )

[DJ Apostrophe]

i will usually talk to the referee breifly as (s)he is testing weights and shims along with the customary thank you after the pool or de.
-w

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Joe biebel

Aside from the "oh noooos" or "yessss" when a referee makes a call during a match, do you talk to the referee? Before, during, or after a match? If you speak to them after a match, do they appreciate your "input"?

Yes.
In epee, they all know me, so there is always conversation.
In foil, I usually am asking questions to determine what the ref is looking for when it's not apparent in their calls.

And their input is usually helpful, unless they just don't know what their talking about...

[Talyn]

I make it a habit of never talking to a ref about the bout even after it's over... thats just me... i don't think im qualified enough to question his calls

[Black Jeebus]

I'm by no means qualified to question any of the ref's I've ever had. This doesn't mean I haven't done it on occasion, but this is usually just to get a feel of what they are looking for or to get them thinking about what I am trying to do. Even then I don't question them about a bout after the bout is over, but I do usually talk to them. It's all well and good to have a serious, stark, professional time at a tournament but ,as many people have noted, at my level fencing is always about having fun and I much more enjoy an environment where everyone is relaxed and joking around even if once we put the masks on we are trying to stab eachother.

[downunder]

yeah, on the occasions when i don't understand the awarding of a hit...

[fencerontheline]

oh, I always do... becasue I'm friends with a bunch of them... because I am usually one of them on days I'm not fencing...

[Victor]

It's fairly common for any ref to invite me to dinner after the competition so we can discuss how he or she could improve his officiating skills. Lately I've been trying to not be so personable and wise, but I can't seem to help it -- they keep asking me for help.

[Iwant2bafencer]

If I'm rather peeved about a call then I'll try my best to keep my mouth shut until I cool down. I know I hate it when a coach or angered player comes storming over telling me off. That's when I pull out my warning cards if it's bad enough.
Mostly I try not to bug em unless there's a call that I'm really confused about and then I'll talk to them after everything is over and in a delicate manner.

[jeff]

If I know the director, I'll chit-chat between bouts or rounds; with strangers I'll be polite and render the courtesies due ("Yes sir/ma'am", "thank you", "je suis pret/ready"). If there's a call I don't like I might occasionally say something like "that was his parry?" but usually keep my peace.

At the Garden State Games I talked a lot with directors, but we know one another or at least recognize one another from other matches. I spent a lot of time talking with one director yesterday, all on the subject of "it must be the ground cable or reel causing that problem". Fortunately, not my bout!

[Joe biebel]

I will often talk with directors after a match, but not before asking them if I may. Sometimes they are too busy and occasionally untrusting or not wanting to be dragged into a useless discussion whose point is to say that "you were wrong and I was right." When they do agree, I usually talk about rules and infractions as opposed to their perception of actions. I'm a firm believer in the old adage " a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." A lot of the referees know me and know that I tape almost all of my matches. Some will even ask me for a copy of a tape or DVD to appraise their performance. These are the directors that I think will continue to improve at a high rate of speed. Never offer to show a director a glaring mistake of theirs on video. It is not well received.

At this last nationals, I spoke with a director (Ed Richards) after one of the DE matches I won, thanked him and said that I thought one of the calls that penalized my opponent was incorrect. Ed penalized my opponent (already had a yellow card) with a touch for going off the side of the strip when he was too close to his end line. Me gaining ground, and putting us back enguarde, pushed him completely off the end of the strip. My perception was that he (my opponent) had passed me on the strip before going off the side of the strip. I told this to Ed and one or two other people nodded assent, and he was gracious enough to "acknowledge the possibility." That evening, I was watching my matches and replayed this action a dozen times. The call Ed made was correct! I was fortunate to see him the next day and let him know I was wrong about the call. His response was something like, "I knew you were wrong".

The point of this last example being, just make sure you know what you're talking about before you go trying to "improve" a referee.

Joe Biebel

[CarlKnoch]

I'm sure that some referees feel that showing them a video of a call you dispute could be viewed as bad form and downright offensive. I on the other hand don't mind it at all, because the call is over, and at best the video can show that I've made a slight mistake. That might help me to correct that mistake the next time I call a bout.

As a referee we have to call things as we see them. How we see things is not always how they actually happened, and it's a good idea to continue training ourselves to see things as they truly happen.

I didn't mind at all when Joe showed me video of an action that he thought was an offense of turning shoulders by his opponent. I was glad to see it, and even though the video to me seemed inconclusive, I have to say that it was helpful to see it again and re-evaluate my call.

Being a new referee I will be videoing many of the bouts I ref in the future. I think it will be just one more tool in helping me to get better. That's the goal. Total competancy.

[Joe biebel]

Well said Carl. That is a splendid attitude and plan. Your excellent directing can only get better with sentiments like that. Your post is an excellent example of how attitude can affect performance.
Joe Biebel

PS This is not a shameless suckup. Carl seems to be immune. I told Carl what a great tie he had before I fenced, and he still called all the touches my opponent made against me!

[Mo]

Originally Posted by CarlKnoch

Being a new referee I will be videoing many of the bouts I ref in the future. I think it will be just one more tool in helping me to get better. That's the goal. Total competancy.

Video taping is an EXCELLENT way to improve both as a fencer and a referee. Video is widely used in just about every sport to show the athlete what they are doing right and wrong.

Carl you are going to be a good if not great ref. You already know that you have a lot to learn and are prepared to learn it.

[fixxmyweapon]

if they make a sort of comment to me while checking weight I'll usually reply but thats about it. and then after the bout of course i thank them for directing and on occasions apologize for my coach and whatever he's done. :P

[MyraTrue]

In my division, its not uncommon to know your director, at least in passing. There are a few of our regulars I've been around for 3 years, and a few of them I enjoy talking with. Usually a "hello" before, maybe some amusement at shims and weights. I do not generally talk to the director durring, except (as I fence epee) a comment about "that was my toe" or "I think I hit the floor".

Afterwards... I rarely talk to them after in epee, besides a thank you. But in foil or sabre, if there were calls that I didn't understand, that didn't go my way, I'll ask what I was doing that they called it that way. I want to understand what it was I was doing that lost me RoW in their eyes.

[Peach]

I know perhaps 2/3 of the sabre referees I run into, and I probably talk to them casually more than I should. I need to work on that, because I'm probably too relaxed and have to remember it might make things awkward for the referee. I always formally shake their hands and thank them afterwards, though.

[MyraTrue]

Peach, as a director, I'd RATHER have two fencers on friendly terms. I've seen some brutal and unsportsmanlike things done between fencers who dislike one another, and I am all the happier to never have to dish out the cards for it.

And as the fencer being social at the strip, its kind of nice to know that you're still friends with this person when you step off again.

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally Posted by Peach

I know perhaps 2/3 of the sabre referees I run into, and I probably talk to them casually more than I should. I need to work on that, because I'm probably too relaxed and have to remember it might make things awkward for the referee. I always formally shake their hands and thank them afterwards, though.

Peach,

Though there are no doubt exceptions to every statement, I've found that at the Vets level there's far less competition stress. At least that's what I've found in the few events I've done. Not that there's been any lack of desire to win, but it's not taken to the level of unidimensional focus that it is with the younger crowd. Especially when competing out of my own back yard I expect that there's going to be some familiarity between the fencers and the refs. I've never felt it imparted any advantage to an opponent; nor have I felt that an advantage was being sought. It adds a nice friendly feel to the sport....if you let it.