Italian grips

[Paddy]

I want to try an Italian grip because I think that it would allow for movement as well as added strength. My problem is that I do not know the legality. Various web-sites all say that it is legal but the problem is that to have a foil with an Italian grip it would mean using a non FIE blade.

Can anyone tell me of the legality or where I can find a FIE blade for an Italian grip?

[cfaustus]

Italian grips ARE legal. As far as the FIE blades, that I am not sure about.. I do know that Uhlmann has started to produce true ricasso italian blades (both electric and practice) contact your favorite Uhlmann distributor for more info.

[neevel]

I want to try an Italian grip because I think that it would allow for movement as well as added strength. My problem is that I do not know the legality. Various web-sites all say that it is legal but the problem is that to have a foil with an Italian grip it would mean using a non FIE blade.

Can anyone tell me of the legality or where I can find a FIE blade for an Italian grip?

There are no FIE homologated Italian blades made. You'll need to use a false ricasso if you want an Italian grip with an FIE blade. Negrini does, I believe, list false-ricasso Italian foils with FIE blades on their website. I've never seen one of their false ricasso pieces, so I can't vouch for the quality (an awful lot of vendors are just using a squashed piece of copper tubing).

-Dave

[cfaustus]

There are no FIE homologated Italian blades made. You'll need to use a false ricasso if you want an Italian grip with an FIE blade. Negrini does, I believe, list false-ricasso Italian foils with FIE blades on their website. I've never seen one of their false ricasso pieces, so I can't vouch for the quality (an awful lot of vendors are just using a squashed piece of copper tubing).

-Dave

Thanks Dave! You always seem to know all these sort of answers!

As for getting a false ricasso that is superior to the squashed bit of tubing, check out the ricasso made by Tom Rockwell at TriCities

http://www.tcasfencing.com/supplies.htm

They are much more substantial, you can shape them like a true ricasso to fit how you like to hold the blade, and they have an ingenious system for locking the ricasso onto the tang of the blade. Closest you are ever going to come to a true ricasso. Tom makes a lot of other stuff as well and is really good about doing more customized solutions. He and Kevin Dougherty are producing the Italian Grips Santelli sells now a days. Their wooden italian grip is a dream!

[Paddy]

Can I use a ricasso blade in compititions because I thought that only FIE stamped blades were allowed?

[whtouche]

You only need FIE blades at FIE competitions such as world cups, etc.
The same thing with FIE clothing. In domestic local regional and national competitions you don't need FIE blades.
(assuming USA, Im believe there are some european countries that require FIE stuff at all their events).

[mischerma]

There are legal Italian Grips and probably the easiest way to get one that is DEFINITELY LEGAL, (if you have the time) is to order one direct from Italy.

I can dig up the address of a place in Milan, Italy that sells them and (FYI) is the manufacturer who created the prototypes for the FIE testing of the NEW Foil tips to begin use after next year's Jr. World Champs.

I will be checking this site on Sunday PM, around 8 (Pacific) and will have the address to list.

The owner/Armorer does not speak Italian, but his daughter does or, as I speak Italian and also know the owner, I can assist in writing a request/order, if you like. my email is maestro@marinfencing.com & my name is stuart phillip kaufman-maestro di scherma

[mischerma]

paddy,

as i said sat.pm, here's the address for Schermasport in milano....

the owner's name is Carlo Ponzi (as in the scheme) and the address is Via Ricordo 2 Milano, Italia 20138.

His daughter speaks and reads English, but write the following:

" Comme per l' instruttzione di San Francisco (USA) Maestro di Scherma-Stuart Phillip Kaufman, per favore, trova in questo lettra e' per a domandare i prezzi per a comprare il fioretto electrico completa con la manica ed coccia nella moda Italiana.

(Translation- As per the directions of San Francisco (USA) Fencing Master Stuart Phillip Kaufman, please find this letter for asking the prices to buy a complete electric foil with Italian-Style Grip & Guard.)

Include your return address with these preceding words: [U]mandata la sua risponda al me @: (send your answer to me @

I hope this helps you and if you need any info, you can e-mail me via my website @ maestro@marinfencing.com

Sinceremente,

THE MARIN FENCING ACADEMY

Stuart Phillip Kaufman'
Maestro di Scherma
Circolo della Spada; Mangiarotti-Milan, Italy-1978 & 2003
&
L' Accademia Nazionale di Scherma-Naples, Italy-2003

[I_luv_saber]

Just out of curiosity, Italian grips are illegal if the rings stick out from behind the guard, right?

[EpeeConvert]

I am curious to know why italian grips could be beneficial. they seem awkward and cumbersome to me. my experience with grips is a little limited to french, german pistol and belgian pistol. but I dont see the advantages of the italian grip. i assume that one would put fingers through the rings but i read earlier in a similar thread that you dont want to do that so you dont break your fingers? could someone shine some light on this subject?

[Inquartata]

I thought the other thread on the Italian made it clear, but essentially the Italian was the pistol grip of its day, offering a stronger grip than the French and thus permitting stronger actions on the blade. It has largely been superseded by orthopedic grips, so now it occupies an intermediate position: stronger than the French, more manipulable than the pistol. Or as some would say, weaker than the pistol, less manipulable than the French. Depends on whether you see the glass as half full or half empty.

As I was taught, you hold it like a French grip, but the crossbars and rings press against your fingers at several points, so it's more secure than the French and the increased number of fulcra let you press, beat or parry more powerfully, just as the projections and flanges on pistol grips do. Though I've never used a strap with one, I'd guess those add still further to that effect.

[Mergs]

Just out of curiosity, Italian grips are illegal if the rings stick out from behind the guard, right?

Correctomundo, yup, you bet, yes, richtig, verdad.

[reposte]

I don't know why you would want to, except curiousity.
If you want grips that will allow better fingering I sugest you use either a French pistol (Uhlmann X model) or a Russian pistol or simply transfer to French altogether.
The transfer to modern grips didn't just happen, and not just because of flicking, but because they are better suited for wider parries and distance closing etc.
Older Gentlemen who fenced when my coaches (not young anymore...) were young had to strap their old style foils to their wrists...

[cfaustus]

For those interested, I just spoke with Santelli and they told me they now have Tom Rockwell's false ricasso's for their Italian weapons! If you must use a false ricasso, these are the way to go! Tom is also now making the grips and pommels for Santelli I am told. Unfortunately, Santelli does not have much as far as true ricasso electric blades, although with a little more coaxing they might start carrying Uhlmann's Italian blades (which are soooo nice). THEN, once Uhlmann sees the demand increasing... they are very reasonable about considering new blade options (They only wanted an order of 100 blades to begin pressing dry Italian Epees with true ricasso's!), before long those FIE true Italian blades may be quite available. *gets a far off look in his eyes*

As far as those of you who remain sceptical about the Italian guard/grip, all I can say is it is either a love it or leave it thing... but if you love it... it becomes an obsession...

... but isn't that true about everything in fencing?