Italian bashing at the WC?

[veeco]

Sanzo was black carded today during the men's team foil event, for "brutality"

<a href="http://www.lequipe.fr/Aussi/escrime_monde_2002_sommaire.html" target="_blank">http://www.lequipe.fr/Aussi/escrime_monde_2002_sommaire.html</a>

That's a little bit funny... It's the second Italian who's been black carded in the world champs...

[soos]

salut garcon ...

j allucine toujours de voir qu il va falloir virer une epreuvre par equipe (fleuret fiminin) pour faire rentrer le sabre feminin aux JO. C est vraiment de la merde commerciale ces JO maintenant ... les boules, mais comme j avais dit, j vais boycotter dans mon coin ... merde au CIO

[D'Artagnan1673]

Translation se vou ples (as well as spell check please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

[darius]

With your Europhile tendencies, you don't parle Francais? I'm disappointed.

darius

"I thought Nat Goodhartz was a man!"
-Neil Lazar

[damianip]

Sanzo was black carded aftrer throwing his mask and then kicking it into one of the side barriers.

This is not a surprise. Sanzo can be very firey when frustrated. At Chaux-les-Fonds he earned a red card against Gregory when he put a hole in a table skirt with his foil.

Maybe the Italians should put leashes on their masks...

Paolo

[nahouw]

Veeco, yes it is odd how the Italians are being singled out -- but, yet, it is just a product of the evolution of fencing, and it is something that the FIE will need to address -- this goes to the core of why fencing isn't spectator friendly.

Fencing has gotten so far that the line between "style" and brutality has gotten blurred -- i.e. the current day style-du-jour is much more brutal -- and referees have been lax and haven't been giving cards for unintentional brutality (because they have been considering this activity "style"), so it has been allowed to progress and has become acceptable, the norm. The Italians have impeccably good technique and style, however, when they encounter an opponent with this new "style" they are then forced to fight fire with fire -- except, the referees know how they usually fence, and when the Italians have to get down to this street-fighting level, they will give them a card for brutality -- why the referees can't see that the style-du-jour is streetfighting and not fencing and card that, I don't know; the fact of carding Italians when they are forced to join in this activity is not right -- they are just doing what is acceptable for everyone else and then get penalized when they just do what everybody else is doing.

[MikeHarm]

If everyone else is throwing temper tantrums and kicking their masks then I think the problem is too few black cards being given out not that the Italians are getting too many.

[veeco]

Well, it's strange though, because we have 2 stories here:

According to L'Equipe (French sports newspaper), he was black carded because he was being brutal when fencing.

According to Paolo, he was black carded for throwing a tantrum and his mask.

Honestly, I don't care which is the right one. In both cases, I don't think that carding for people who throw their mask is necessary.

Seriously, who cares? It's over. The mask is thrown, the bout is over. 5 minutes later everything is forgotten.

I understand carding for not saluting or not shaking your opponents hand, but when you throw your mask it's another story.

As far as brutality, I must say that I had not seen the situation as Nahouw.

One the one hand I agree with you, because against aggressive people you need to be aggressive, sometimes, and most important as a referee it's not fair to have 2 different attitudes against the same behavior.

But on the other hand, there is a part of me that thinks that you can defeat aggressive opponents without being brutal yourself. This is one of the interesting points of fencing. Sure, the brutal fencer should be carded no matter what, but when you are fencing a brutal person, you don't necessarily fight fire with fire. Sometimes it's better to use water (I know, I sound like a chinese prophecist... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

<small>[ 08-22-2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: veeco ]</small>

[damianip]

Interesting. I got my story from RAI and, of course, there will be an Italian slant. It could also be that my Italian is so rusty that I misread it. I'll go back and check.

Anyone else want to take a shot?

The article is here:

<a href="http://www.raisport.rai.it/raiSportSezioneIndex/0,5785,_75_44_1787,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.raisport.rai.it/raiSportSezioneIndex/0,5785,_75_44_1787,00.html</a>

Paolo

[veeco]

Now, even with my shabby Italian it seems pretty clear to me that RAI says one thing and L'Equipe says another.

Although maybe L'Equipe doesn't know what they are talking about is probably more right. It would not be the first time that happens <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[damianip]

I checked RAISport, Canal Sport and Data Sport (all Italian sites) and they all said basically the same thing.

Sanzo had a tantrum (what a surprise) and threw his mask. When told to calm down by the director, he kicked it off the strip.

Out came the card and out went the Italians.

We Italians are SOOOOOOOOOOO emotional.

Paolo

[135711]

he should have written it in italian, pass the parmasean please. gracie about that, yes we are emotional people, unlike those machines from asia.

<small>[ 08-22-2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]</small>

[JEC]

I agree with Paolo's interpretation. Expect the unexpected; it's a tough life having Latin blood

[nahouw]

Paolo, I read the RAI report -- you didn't translate it wrong, but rather what it described is the normal thing Italians do when they are done with a bout -- they drop their mask to their foot, and then use the foot to stop the mask. But, of course, when you are frustrated, things can get a little less controlled -- and apparently, the referee in question took the opportunity to card the Italian - hmmm..... looks like some bias to me.

Veeco, a saying comes to mind "nice guys finish last". Sure, the brutal fencer should be carded -- but what if the referee doesn't do so? That is why the Italians are getting upset -- the referees are not only not enforcing the rules, but are penalizing Italians when they get upset that the referees aren't enforcing the rules. "You can't fight city hall" comes to mind....How long do you let the score get out of hand before you do something? Do you remain a "nice guy" and follow the rules, even though the referee doesn't, and then lose the bout? How do you handle the frustration of the situation?

[Inquartata]

I see nothing wrong with carding for tantrums, though black seems a bit harsh.

The problem is that if you allow these little displays of pettish immaturity, they get more and more common. And bigger. And more flagrant.

I remember a tournament, before the advent of penalties for this sort of thing, where a sabre fencer, who shall remain nameless, threw what is still for me the grandaddy of all tantrums.

As soon as the bout was done, he flung his mask across the room ( over another strip, BTW ) toward his bag. He let out two or three immense bellows. He attempted to break his sabre blade, but only succeeded in bending it into a fishhook shape about a foot up from the guard. reaching his bag, he kicked his mask into it, took the bent sabre by the foible and smacked the guard end into the brick wall of the gym two or three times. Flung it down and stormed out of the gym.

Five minutes later a friend of mine came in and I told him about it all. "Oh, that must be the guy who's outside screaming and ripping up the oleander bushes", he replied.

Is this the sort of thing we want to encourage? I think not. It was embarassing to watch, distracting to other fencers, and potentially dangerous.

I don't think it is out of order to expect adults to act their ages.

[AndrewH]

Ha! Woulda loved to have been there. Perhaps venues should supply some sort of rage-release facility, like a lame-wearing boxing dummy. I sure could go for that sometimes. Even better, one for each nationality... for the brits, an FRA lame, for the canadians, a USA, and everyone can take turns on POL.... (yes, it's a joke...)

[epeemike81]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Inquartata:
<strong>I see nothing wrong with carding for tantrums, though black seems a bit harsh.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Such tantrums are generally thrown at the END of bouts.... so, lesser cards are not very effective.

-m

[achilleus]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Inquartata:
<strong>I see nothing wrong with carding for tantrums, though black seems a bit harsh.

The problem is that if you allow these little displays of pettish immaturity, they get more and more common. And bigger. And more flagrant.

I remember a tournament, before the advent of penalties for this sort of thing, where a sabre fencer, who shall remain nameless, threw what is still for me the grandaddy of all tantrums.

As soon as the bout was done, he flung his mask across the room ( over another strip, BTW ) toward his bag. He let out two or three immense bellows. He attempted to break his sabre blade, but only succeeded in bending it into a fishhook shape about a foot up from the guard. reaching his bag, he kicked his mask into it, took the bent sabre by the foible and smacked the guard end into the brick wall of the gym two or three times. Flung it down and stormed out of the gym.

Five minutes later a friend of mine came in and I told him about it all. "Oh, that must be the guy who's outside screaming and ripping up the oleander bushes", he replied.

Is this the sort of thing we want to encourage? I think not. It was embarassing to watch, distracting to other fencers, and potentially dangerous.

I don't think it is out of order to expect adults to act their ages.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Carding for tantrums really depends on what happens. Throwing mask across a room, is a black. Throwing a mask straight into the ground at your feet, isn't. Not obeying the ref and continuing a tantrum, is a black.

That said, the coolest black I've seen given, had to be at a junior NAC, 2 boys were fencing to make the top 8. the score is 14-14, both have yellow cards. The come together with a flurry of actions, one light touch. The fencer who scored screams and flips his mask high in the air, just as the referee informs the fencers that the fencer who scored turned his shoulder before the touch earning a second yellow, and the annulling of the touch. His exultation turns to anger and as the mask comes down he kicks it into the back of another ref, and proceeds to argue with his own ref about what a bad call it was.

[Ben[PrFC]]

I dont think I've ever witnessed a black card being awarded, tho I've only been fencing about 2 years, but I did hear about an interesting one a few months ago. It was at the Pomme De Terre at brandeis, there was a new referee being observed, and he was reffing a team foil bout between new york athletic club and...some club from..pennsylvania? I dont know. Anyways, they're all acting like jerks and the director is handling it well. The last touch is scored, the guy from penn who lost the touch shouted "Bull F-ing Sht!" Turned his back to the director, dropped his mask, kicked it backwards at the director. It missed, crossed I think 2 more strips and almost hit my coach, who was directing some foil or epee bout. Without turning around to see who had done it, he pulls his black card out of his pocket, turns around to see at least 2, maybe 3 other directors holding up black cards.
They spent the rest of the day arguing which percentage of the black card they each had.

[MikeHarm]

Thats interesting.. I thought only the director of your bout was the one that could black card ya, I didn't know directors not involved in the match could card ya as well.

Is that just for black cards or can they do that with other cards too?