A Question For The Sabreurs & Sabreuses

[Schiavona]

Forgive me if I got the spelling wrong French gender endings always throw me.

Anyway, my question is this; what parry is the most used in sabre? it can reasonably be argued that quarte is the most used in foil, but is it also true for sabre? Do you regularly use any parries besides quarte, terce and quinte? No distance parry answers please!

Thanks in advance!

[whtouche]

That's probably a hard question to answer definitively.
The parry most used depends on where your opponant is attacking, and where he attacks may depend alot on the style and way you fence. I use 4 the most probably, but that is probably because I try to keep my 3 closed as much as possible so I can narrow the oppertunities for my opponant to attack open lines, thereby making it easier to parry.
As for the 3,4,5 parries, those are pretty much all you need to get by, but I would say I personally use 1 and 2 more than most people I know. They're good for step-in parries.

[prototoast]

5... and since I need more characters, I guess I'll add a little more.

People generally like to attack head most. it's closer than 4 and it's the easiest to attack.

Although, against some lefties, 4 takes priority...

Or now that I reflect upon it more, 3 also gets a lot of use... so many sabre attacks come to an end as the opponents blade goes crashing into an unmoved guard.

But ultimately, 5.

[ndfencer]

I would say the "head parry" is by far the most used. The head is the most common target and it is a quick parry that can easily be set up out of simultaneous actions. It is also used as a beat-parry quite frequently which is a more aggresive use.

[AndrewH]

Well 3 4 and 5 are collectively known as the "holy trinity"- 90% of all your parrying is done with those three. Learn them, know them, live them. When you do lessons, you should practice those three parrys to the point that your muscles will react and put your arm in the correct parry position by instinct- you shouldn't (and won't have time) to be thinking "ok, the attack is to my head... so i need to parry.... 5!".

Of the three, it's difficult to say which is used most. Probably 3, because it's basically the en guarde position, you use it without knowing it. It's most logical to assume that 5 should be the most common, seeing as the basic attack taught to all sabre fencers is the head cut. Difficult to say really, because some fencers favor attacks to certain lines more than others.

Occasionaly, I've seen use for the 1 & 2 parries. Mostly when defending against those who like to make low attacks that come under the guard. Also, going directly into 2 from a 5 parry is a useful shortcut that can foil a pre-rehearsed "feint head, cut flank" maneuver.

[noodle]

parry i see most often in sabre is the "wrong parry".


i swear, its so tough to parry anything with the blade in sabre...

[AndrewH]

Well yea, of course an actual blade parry is your last line of defense. You want to avoid relying on parrys because assuming ALL attacks come to one of those three lines, you have a 30% chance of being successful standing there and trying to parry. Parry is a last resort when the following have failed:

1) Attempt to take the blade
2) Attempt to make the attacker stop/pause
3) Attempt to hit in preparation
4) Attempt to invite the attack and step out of distance

If all of those have failed you, and you find yourself at the very end of the strip with an attack incoming, THAT is the time to take a parry.

[sabreur]

Andrew got it pretty much right.

Three and four parries are the ones I see used the most.

Even if you have a good 3 engarde, you often have to take a stronger 3 parry (turn bell out and move hand out further) because a lot of people like to attack the forearm.

5 parry is generally taken:

1) Aggressively, as a pris de fer.
2) In absolute desperation.

It is very hard to take a 5 successfully as a classic parry--most sabre fencers are trained to react to an upward movement of the opponent's hand by changing to either flank or chest. There is also considerable risk of a mal pare.

Seconde is being used more and more these days--it is very effective against the attacks to the outside or bottom of the forearm.

Prime in sabre serves two purposes, IMNSHO:

1) To try to recover from a too early quinte, and cover your chest.
2) To render your opponent hors de combat because they are either completely bemused or laughing so hard.

Prime is an inherently slow, big motion that places you in a very awkward position with lots of open lines. My coach occasionally has me practice a prime pris de fer in lessons, and practice the 1-2-5 system of parries, but in general, I find it a pretty useless parry in a real fight.

Cheers, MR

[dunastor]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

No distance parry answers please!

Let me put it this way:

The most common parry is not being there...

[Inquartata]

Another vote for 3 and 4.

I'd say I use these around 80% of the time. 5 is often replaced these days by a swiping 3 or 4 with distance---maybe that's the lazy way, but for the reasons sabreur mentioned I don't see or use the classic head parry all that much. I think I used it once or twice at most all through 3 sabre events at Nationals last week.

I like 2, especially against left-handers or aggressive wrist-cutters, but I have never been able to integrate 1 into my inventory. My coach uses it to effect, but I can't seem to make it work for me.

[Schiavona]

Thanks for the responses.

Some of you might find this amusing......
When I first 'learned' sabre back in the late '70's the style I was taught was archaic even for then. I learned 9 parries! The 3 everybody knows, high and low prime & seconde, a 'reverse' 5 and a hanging parry over the weapon shoulder. Needless to say I've never fenced electric sabre, but I'm thinking hard on it. Unless it's that damn low blood sugar talking again

[Inquartata]

Well, I always knew that you were a sensible fellow...wise...perspicacious...

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Well, I always knew that you were a sensible fellow...wise...perspicacious...

Nah. Well, I am all those......things you called me, I think.
There are several reasons; A) I never really competed in sabre, so people can't say, "Gee, he used to be much better before he got old." and B) Sabre is the weakest weapon, number-wise, in my division. lastly C) I've come to the conclusion that it may not be right?, moral?, ethical? to compete against the people that you train(not to mention the embarrassment if they kick your butt!)

[whtouche]

I notice nobody mentioned and I forgot to mention parry 6, which is also alot of fun as a beat-parry if done correctly.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by whtouche

I notice nobody mentioned and I forgot to mention parry 6, which is also alot of fun as a beat-parry if done correctly.

Say what?????

Are you talking about a counter three with the point extended as in a line? Often done as an attempt to find the blade against what passes for a marching attack in sabre? Generally combined with counters in the other direction and stop cuts?

I've never heard of sixte as a sabre parry, or at least not in contemporary texts.

MR

[jBirch]

Counter six works against a head attack with riposte to inside cheek and six is a valid counter to a PIL. Another weird parry I've seen called elevated six is essentially quinte with the blade pointing outside and the arm elevated over the opposite shoulder. It's like the 9 parry Schianova talked about though covering head from oblique inside-outside head cuts. I've seen the 9 parry effective with an inward demi-tourne esquive against a riposte to flank/elbow. It's meaningless as an initial parry, but works as a recovery from flank or head with a moulinet kind of wrist rotation.

Hope this helps.

[glowstix]

do people actually parry in sabre???

[whtouche]

What I was taught to be six is what jbirch described as elevated six, and what I think someone else meant when they mentioned a reversed 5.
If your opponant parries your attack to 4(assuming both righties) and is slow enough in his riposte to your 5, a 6 parry is very usefule as you're already inside your opponants blade.
But mostly I use it following an invite as a beat-parry.

[jBirch]

whtouche,

Technically, the parries are the same regardless of weapon.
1 - pronation low inside,
2 - pronation low outside,
3 - pronation high outside
4 - pronation high inside
5 - pronation head
6 - supination high outside
7 - supination low inside
8 - supination low outside
9 - supination - back

There is a variation of 6 that covers the head target (called elevated 6) which is also referred to as supinated 5. There is another parry, sometimes called the "master's parry" that is 9 but without going over the shoulder that is useful against attacks to the outside shoulder/elbow/upper-arm and a pronated back parry over the inside shoulder that's sometimes called 10 (essenatially, prime carried around to the back) that has some utility against a fleche/prime defense w/ insistence.

Hope this helps.

[edew]

Making blade parries in saber often do result in some good results. Many saber fencers now are so inured in the tempo of distance parries that they won't expect a quick parry-riposte.

A good one I use once in a while is four-circle-four. Make a big lumber four-parry, then quickly spin it around for a circle four. Catches them off guard like heck. Even the top fencers. (Did it against Tim Morehouse several years ago at the Sacramento Nationals.)

Fake the first parry, make the second real. That's the basic process, if one wants to do parries.