Upcoming rules changes

[Peach]

I went to one of the referee seminar sessions to listen in. There are a number of rule changes which will probably become effective in August.

For instance, when a spectator, coach, parent, or other off-strip person is disruptive, you will first warn them (yellow card) and then, if they persist, you can black card them. Both cards of course must be noted on the score sheet and the Bout Committee should be informed.

Also, more yellow card offenses will annul the touch of the fencer at fault, letting his opponent's touch stand: simple corps-a-corps in foil and sabre, covering target, touching electrical equipment.

Reversing shoulders in foil will no longer be forbidden.

I also heard elsewhere of some other possible changes. Fencers who present themselves on the strip without their names on their uniforms in a competition where it is required, will start all their bouts with a red card--touch against--until they fix the problem. I will be interested to see how this is enforced.

Another one is that they are going to stop the practice of having the Bout Committee page fencers who haven't presented themselves to the strip, instead the calls will all be made by the referee, who can then exclude the fencer based on the referee's shouts only. I see problems with this one, because unfortunately all too often a fencer is not at the strip because it wasn't announced. Also, some referees can barely mumble, let alone shout.

It was confirmed to me in the referee seminar that the 10-touch bout in veteran's sabre has a one-minute break at 5 touches--there was a disagreement about this in Palm Springs, but apparently it's resolved.

There was much gossip about another possibility: Off-targets might not stop the fencing phrase in foil, so that an attack/counter-attack will result in a touch for the counter-attacker. If I understand this correctly, it means that if there are two lights and one of them is off-target, the on-target touch is awarded, but if the machine blocks out anything after the off-target, the fencers are replaced back on guard.

[achilleus]

My previous joke about the FIE wanting everyone to switch to epee doesn't seem so funny anymore...

[kalivor]

I went to one of the referee seminar sessions to listen in. There are a number of rule changes which will probably become effective in August.

[....]

Off-targets will not stop the fencing phrase in foil, so that an attack/counter-attack will result in a touch for the counter-attacker. If I understand this correctly, it means that if there are two lights and one of them is off-target, the on-target touch is awarded, but if the machine blocks out anything after the off-target, the fencers are replaced back on guard.

I'd heard of all the other rule changes, which were all approved at the FIE Conference in Leipzig. (See http://www.fencing.ca/news/2003nov_f...ess_report.htm and http://www.leonpaul.com/news/general_news.htm )

But I've not seen or heard anything about the above change ... I can't find any document as such on the FIE website, nor anywhere else ... CFF, USFA, Leon Paul's site, fencing.net.

Where's that coming from? I can't imagine there being such a change without it being discussed ad nauseum here. Are you sure you have that right? Could you be mistaking the proposed change in block-out times to mean that a white light will be ignored? (which isn't the case, AFAIK)

[Peach]

Hm . . . I didn't hear that one in the referee seminar, so it was in the wrong place in the post. It was one of the possible rule changes which people were discussing all around, however. I've fixed the post to indicate that this was gossip.

[Peach]

It occurs to me that this gossip might have been the result of referees mis-reading the change to Article t.72, which makes it clearer that substituting non-valid target or covering ("by any abnormal movement") is a yellow card with touch annulled; they probably didn't notice that the article is in the sabre section, which is why it starts with saying that a non-valid touch doesn't stop the phrase or annual any touches.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Annual touches...that's about how often I get in a good hit!

Regarding the no-page DQ: that seems pretty harsh. Frankly, the PA systems in most venues are virtually useless when the competition is in full swing. If the fencers can't hear their name over that, how are they going to hear a referee from 15 strips away?

What was the rationale for the change?

[dunastor]

It occurs to me that this gossip might have been the result of referees mis-reading the change to Article t.72, which makes it clearer that substituting non-valid target or covering ("by any abnormal movement") is a yellow card with touch annulled; they probably didn't notice that the article is in the sabre section, which is why it starts with saying that a non-valid touch doesn't stop the phrase or annual any touches.

The foil equivalent of article t.72 is t.49.
I don't know why this article should be the basis of such rumors...

[Peach]

The foil equivalent of article t.72 is t.49.
I don't know why this article should be the basis of such rumors...

Because the entirety of the sabre article starts:

"A touch which arrives on a non-valid part of the target is not counted as a touch; it does not stop the fencing phrase and does not annul any subsequent touches," and apparently the sheet with new USFA fencing rules which some of the referees had started with that language and didn't point out that it was referring to sabre only until after quoting the entire article. So anyone who read it in a hurry probably thought it applied to foil.

[dunastor]

Well I don't know, but shouldn't the fact that it was article t.72 be enough to clarify that it was about sabre?

Besides, I think that referees should be able to carefully read the rules and changes, so they don't make these kinds of mistakes....

[Peach]

Well I don't know, but shouldn't the fact that it was article t.72 be enough to clarify that it was about sabre?

Besides, I think that referees should be able to carefully read the rules and changes, so they don't make these kinds of mistakes....

Yes, and as a teacher I think it would be ideal if my students read instructions carefully and followed directions with the minimum of confusion, but the fact is people are human, human information processing is fraught with noise and confusion even in the best of circumstances, and those referees were working pretty darn hard and reading on the fly. So you have to make things very very very clear. The sheet was a little confusing and people don't have the sequence of article numbers memorized.

To ramble amiably into the ozone on that topic . . . Human beings are very intelligent but they don't process information sequentially or logically. The reason why people eternally push doors marked "Pull" is not that they are stupid but that the doors look as if they should be pushed and are badly designed. I recommend reading one of Henry Petroski's books!

[mlr2fence]

I see problems with the no-page rule. How much time will be given to the fencer and what starts the clock ticking? In a crowded venue like Charlotte it was at times near impossible to move about quickly. By the time one squeezes far enough to the front to be able to read the pool and DE strip assignments, claim their gear and then get to the strip an time can pass quickly.

[vincikai]

im a little lost ;P guess i should sould only fence epee from now on

[dunastor]

those referees were working pretty darn hard and reading on the fly. So you have to make things very very very clear. The sheet was a little confusing and people don't have the sequence of article numbers memorized.

I agree with what you're saying.
However, the above mentioned rules changes were implemented since the beginning of this year, so people had to have had experience with them already.
The part about the off-target lights is new, and, as far as I know, is going to be implemented no earlier than after the olympics.
Besides that, at a referee meeting at a tournament, rule changes should always be accompanied by a verbal explanation as to rule out any confusion.

but, as they say, errare humanum est, so mistakes are easily made..

[darius]

Perhaps the fencers could be given a "time-to-report", based on their place in the bracket.

For example, if you're triple-stripping a tableau of 64, you've got ~32 bouts, minus the number of byes for the first round. Divide that number by 3, and then take a "minimum" bout time.

For foil, you might figure that at minimum, most DEs will take 7mins of real time, which includes hooking up, testing, starts and stops. So if you post the tableau at 10:30, there can be report times for the 1st three bouts of 10:40, the next three at 10:47, etc. This would allow people to have a more realistic picture of when they're going to bout, and avoid congestion directly by the actual competition strips, as everybody heads that direction.

darius

[dreadfoily]

I went to one of the referee seminar sessions to listen in. There are a number of rule changes which will probably become effective in August.

For instance, when a spectator, coach, parent, or other off-strip person is disruptive, you will first warn them (yellow card) and then, if they persist, you can black card them. Both cards of course must be noted on the score sheet and the Bout Committee should be informed.

Also, more yellow card offenses will annul the touch of the fencer at fault, letting his opponent's touch stand: simple corps-a-corps in foil and sabre, covering target, touching electrical equipment.

Reversing shoulders in foil will no longer be forbidden.

I also heard elsewhere of some other possible changes. Fencers who present themselves on the strip without their names on their uniforms in a competition where it is required, will start all their bouts with a red card--touch against--until they fix the problem. I will be interested to see how this is enforced.

Another one is that they are going to stop the practice of having the Bout Committee page fencers who haven't presented themselves to the strip, instead the calls will all be made by the referee, who can then exclude the fencer based on the referee's shouts only. I see problems with this one, because unfortunately all too often a fencer is not at the strip because it wasn't announced. Also, some referees can barely mumble, let alone shout.

It was confirmed to me in the referee seminar that the 10-touch bout in veteran's sabre has a one-minute break at 5 touches--there was a disagreement about this in Palm Springs, but apparently it's resolved.

There was much gossip about another possibility: Off-targets might not stop the fencing phrase in foil, so that an attack/counter-attack will result in a touch for the counter-attacker. If I understand this correctly, it means that if there are two lights and one of them is off-target, the on-target touch is awarded, but if the machine blocks out anything after the off-target, the fencers are replaced back on guard.

I don't like the idea that a fencer could possibly be penalized if some of their friends or family or even coach gets too loud, it doesn't seem fair. It's making a person responsible for another's behavior. But, I do like the idea of not stopping the fencing because of the off-target light. This sort of came up a few years ago, and we talked a bit about it then. The cons felt it may cause more injury, the pro's felt it would produce better fencing. I sort of favor the continuation of fencing. It would make it more difficult for the directors, if I remember the debate accurately.

[dunastor]

I don't like the idea that a fencer could possibly be penalized if some of their friends or family or even coach gets too loud, it doesn't seem fair. It's making a person responsible for another's behavior.

This is not the case. If a friend, family, or coach gets too load, he or she gets the penalty, not the fencer.

But, I do like the idea of not stopping the fencing because of the off-target light. This sort of came up a few years ago, and we talked a bit about it then. The cons felt it may cause more injury, the pro's felt it would produce better fencing. I sort of favor the continuation of fencing. It would make it more difficult for the directors, if I remember the debate accurately.

The not stopping in foil at off target lights isn't going to be. It's a misinterpretation of a rule change for sabre.
Bill Oliver explains this in the other thread about it.

[hpfencing]

Just a quick reminder.. Don't change things in your division or club until the USFA has sent out something official to the division level.

I have heard the off-target will remain and the off target will go away by to great referees....

Maybe Bill or an FOC will post the rule changes in a new thread so we know fact from fiction......

[downunder]

I went to one of the referee seminar sessions to listen in. There are a number of rule changes which will probably become effective in August.

For instance, when a spectator, coach, parent, or other off-strip person is disruptive, you will first warn them (yellow card) and then, if they persist, you can black card them. Both cards of course must be noted on the score sheet and the Bout Committee should be informed.

Also, more yellow card offenses will annul the touch of the fencer at fault, letting his opponent's touch stand: simple corps-a-corps in foil and sabre, covering target, touching electrical equipment.

Reversing shoulders in foil will no longer be forbidden.

I also heard elsewhere of some other possible changes. Fencers who present themselves on the strip without their names on their uniforms in a competition where it is required, will start all their bouts with a red card--touch against--until they fix the problem. I will be interested to see how this is enforced....

There was much gossip about another possibility: Off-targets might not stop the fencing phrase in foil, so that an attack/counter-attack will result in a touch for the counter-attacker. If I understand this correctly, it means that if there are two lights and one of them is off-target, the on-target touch is awarded, but if the machine blocks out anything after the off-target, the fencers are replaced back on guard.

these changes have been in effect at at world level since jan 1... its nothing too drastic.

Although reversing shoulders is no longer a penalty, it is now covered under covering target, assuming the back arm is covering the rear under-arm

If a touch is annulled due to one of new yellow cards, then the opponents counter (out of time) movement still not be valid (maybe i interpreted peach wrong).

The yellow card, black card to people off the piste is essentially the same, previous it was a red card for the warning.

[CarlKnoch]

I see problems with the no-page rule. How much time will be given to the fencer and what starts the clock ticking? In a crowded venue like Charlotte it was at times near impossible to move about quickly. By the time one squeezes far enough to the front to be able to read the pool and DE strip assignments, claim their gear and then get to the strip an time can pass quickly.

While at Charlotte I heard a fencer say: "I'll just wait until they call me to my strip for second call instead of going to look on the tableau. It's easier that way!"

I think that's one reason to stop calling. Some people getting called are abusing the system to be lazy just because they don't want to read the tableau and find there strip assignment. And truly there aren't many second calls in comparison to the number of competitors who get to the strip on time.

I think it would be a great idea for the tournament directors to find a better way to show the assigned strips so there aren't a hundred people crowded around three areas trying to find their names, but that's another story.

[MikeHarm]

I had an interesting thing happen to me with the overhead calling.

Picture this, I finish my seeding round, sign the score sheet and the director leaves to go turn the results in. I step out for like 5 minutes, come back (seeding rounds are still being fought out), and suddenly everyone else I know in Michigan is telling me I just had my '3rd call' on strip 34.

Panicking, wondering what the heck is going on I grab my stuff and rush off to the strip. What, is it a drug test? Did they finish everything tabulate it and start in that fast a time?.

After I get there noone knows what I'm talking about and someone else tells me they heard third call for me and it was strip 24 not strip 34.

I rush over to strip 24, see other people fencing and noone waiting for anyone to show up. I told the director who I was and said I heard I was getting third call for the strip and asked if that meant I was blackcarded, he said yep.

So, I slunk off getting ready to pack up my stuff and go home feeling like the biggest confused fool in the world. Just before I head out I decided to check with the bout committe to see if I could sort out wether I was double listed or what and if it was something I could of avoided trouble with and as a long shot see if there was any chance of arguing the matter.

They told me that it wasn't me being called after all it was someone with an entirely different name from Arizona who made it to the strip in time. Park/Harm..not same. Man. I was still worried until I saw my name on the DE list.

I still like the overhead calls as a competitor, its a help in a venue that is large and sometimes confusing.