Meanderings about Charlotte

[Artisan]

.... Athlete's Handbook still lists Veteran events as eligible for classification changes. Some local fencers did very well, and I am wondering if they got anything to show for it...

Because of the age-group breakdowns, none of the Veterans competitions had > 64 people, so no level 3 or 4 classified events, where the meat and potatos of classifications can be upgraded.

[Inquartata]

That doesn't entirely answer the question, though. Some of the events had all of the prerequisites needed to award ratings, whether upgrades or confirmations, even if not a lot of them. Yet the results listings do not reflect this. Youth 10 WE had 25 competitors, but the page reflects that it was a "Group D1 competition". Vet women's foil had a mere 8 competitors, but the page still says "Group E1 competition". OTOH most of the Vet events do not.

I am presuming it's just an input oversight, and that all of the events which reached the minimum numbers and ratings will award ratings changes as appropriate.

[oiuyt]

There were 16 total black cards issued from what I was told.

Story: Between pool bouts coach walks up to referee (not me for those that are wondering :) ), checks his name tag, says "*name-of-referee*, huh? You suck." and starts to walk away. Out comes the black card. First interaction between the referee and the coach. Referee never even knew what call(s) the coach was upset with or who his students were.

Incidently this coach reentered the building a couple of hours later, falsely claiming that the referee had recinded the black card during a conversation outside the venue (referee was stupid enough to talk to the coach during a cigarette break). I know there was discussion (by FOCs) of banning him for the remainder of the week for lying his way back into the venue but I don't know what the final outcome/decision was.

Story (DFL's #2 story with more details): Y10 (forget if it was foil or epee) boy is fencing. Dad is a major-league "fencing parent", screaming at son. Middle of one of the bouts the dad goes up the the strip, tells son that if he's not going to listen that they're going home, starts unhooking son from the reel. Referee stops the dad, tells him he can't just take his son in the middle of the bout and needs to get beyond the barriers again. Dad stops trying to unhook son, starts to walk away. Shoots comment to the referee along the lines of "well then stop f'ing up the calls." Out comes the black card. Father returns to the strip to retrieve his son before leaving. Son goes off with father (son in tears). Of course this results in the son being black carded as well. I assume that the father was fairly upset with the referee's calls before coming on strip in addition to being upset with something his son was doing (when the referee in questioned related the story to me the reason the father was giving to the son for taking him off strip originally was due to the son's action(s) (or lack thereof) rather than due to frustration with the refereeing, then again, that's an obviously biased source). Incidently, the referee in question is well known to me and fairly decent at worst, although somewhat inexperienced. Not saying he was the best ref in the room by any stretch, but he certainly knows what he's doing and is competent at refereeing.

-B :)

[achilleus]

Rumor has it this (2004 Nationals in Charlotte) was the first National Tournament where the BC ran out of black card froms, and had to have more copies made. I heard some good black card stories:

1. One "fencing dad" shot his mouth off to the BC using foul language. Was escorted from building.

2. Another fencing dad escorted his kid (a Y10? Y12?) fencer from the venue after a bad call. Good riddance, nice to see dad showing his kid what sport is all about. ("Gee dad, I thought you said sport was all about getting big money contracts.")

3. One fencer refused to sign a score sheet, figuring this was how to protest the bad calls. I guess no black card needed, he did sign.

Sure like to see more liberal use of the black card. And maybe make them stick for a few tournaments after they are warranted. Saw a kid throw a mask down after losing. Mask bounced into the next strip. I'd hammer him with a black card for a few tornaments for such a display.

Everyone jump in and tell their black card stories from Charlotte!

I find this whole post amusing...

It's classic human nature. Hate and deplore the actions. Wants to see more black cards, yet wants everyone to post the stories which in turn glorify the act we all so deplore.

Personally, I think the amount of black cards given out is fine. I would merely like to see them equally upheld. For example, the top coaches and fencers can act much worse than others and still not receive a card?

I understand why, but it still bugs me a little.

[wdcepee]

I happened to be directing nearby when the Y14 fencer was black carded. The mask did not slip, it was forceabley thrown across the strip after the fnecer was defeated in a DE bout. The director was absolutely correct in the call. The sad thing was the coach(?) arguing on appeal that this was an un justified call.

I wonder what we are teaching our young fencers? Has anyone besides me noticed the lack of formality in saluting and overall sportsmanship at these levels?

The results from Charlotte list 6 "Fencer Excluded"s and 2 "Team Excludeds".

The results from last year at Austin list 6 "Fencer Excluded"s and 1 "Team Excluded".

The numbers above don't include black cards to non-competitors such as parents, coaches, spectators, et al and might not include any black cards "awarded" to competitors during pools. (Don't results from fencers who get black cards during pools get omitted completely instead of listed as "excluded"?)

Below is the list of "excluded"s from Charlotte this year:


Division I-A Men's Saber
(57 Competitors)
Group A3 competition
33. FENCER EXCLUDED


Division II Women's Foil
(169 Competitors)
Group B3 competition
156. FENCER EXCLUDED


Division III Women's Épée
(151 Competitors)
Group C3 competition
139. FENCER EXCLUDED


Youth-14 Men's Épée
(127 Competitors - top 32 earn points)
Group B3 competition
122. FENCER EXCLUDED


Youth-12 Men's Épée
(68 Competitors - top 32 earn points)
Group C2 competition
9. FENCER EXCLUDED


Youth-14 Women's Saber
(58 Competitors - top 32 earn points)
Group B2 competition
40. FENCER EXCLUDED


Senior Team Men's Épée
(38 Teams)
10. TEAM EXCLUDED


Senior Team Men's Foil
(27 Teams)
17. TEAM EXCLUDED

[dekko]

I think the D1A sabre card was for the dad not the fencer. The website may not have been changed yet but I think it had been reversed.

The Team Men's Epee I did witness. Mr. Manske parlayed his top 8 D1AME finish into a tirade that caused him to throw his mask and hit Ed Richards in the ankles that nearly knocked him over. Had the ref of record not whipped out the BC Mr. Richards would have.

Sorry, no details on the other BC's.

[MScott]

Quote of the week for me, from a female, Russian judge who had anointed herself the "best female referee in this country": "there is no definition of an attack." Then, when I dared state that there is such a definition, she replied, "I don't rely on a definition, but what I feel", and repeated her self-proclaimed title as "the best...". The closest anyone in our pool got to an "attack in prep" call were a couple of "simultaneous" calls.

[Hawkeye]

Here's another black card story... Kinda sad, but kinda funny too...

It's the DivII mens foil, 2nd De. The fencer on the right keeps falling short in his attacks, and when I say short, I mean like a yard or so. Fencer left waits for the attack to finish, and then launches his own attack. Ref calls it as "Point-In-Line from the right, touch right." Uh-huh. Fencer right clearly stoped his action short, and all the Ref says is point-in-line?

So, in order to prove the Ref wrong, Fencer Left keeps doing the action. Fencer left is down about 10 points when the break sets in. Fencer left's coach walks in, says a bunch of stuff to the Ref with a lot of VEEEPS thrown in, generally insulting his biological orgin and the ethics of the Ref's... well, you get the picture. Ref black cards Fencer left's coach, and fencer left goes on the lose the bout.

o_O

something's wrong here...

What's so sad is the coach was right (not about the Ref's biological orgin and all, but on the calls.) Only problem is, Fencer left's coach can't keep his mouth shut and gets himself black carded. Any dodo, in thie situation, would tell his fencer to change his tactics, that the Ref can't see the action. But why do that when you can get your self black carded? :P

Keep in mind that all of this is second hand, though...

btw, I was supposted to be fencing in the U-19 Men's Foil Team, but due to some primary club problems, the team was excluded. Maybe I need to look again, but I didn't see that on the list...

btw again, I was lucky enough to be staying in the Hilton. My parents were thinking about staying in the hotel that had the shooting, lol.

Ciao, Hawkeye

[counter riposte]

Still trying to figure out which team was black carded because one of the members decided they wanted to get thier nickers stenciled.... in the middle of the team bout.

[whtouche]

Quote of the week for me, from a female, Russian judge who had anointed herself the "best female referee in this country": "there is no definition of an attack." Then, when I dared state that there is such a definition, she replied, "I don't rely on a definition, but what I feel", and repeated her self-proclaimed title as "the best...". The closest anyone in our pool got to an "attack in prep" call were a couple of "simultaneous" calls.

Haha.
Out of curiousity, did this ref ever state something along the lines of "I don't know the rules, I ref from the heart" ?
Also, was she reffing back to back with Bill Oliver? I heard a similar story with the above details
And for reference, I'm fairly certain I know who the best female ref in the country is, at least in sabre - and she was not at nationals.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Haha.
Out of curiousity, did this ref ever state something along the lines of "I don't know the rules, I ref from the heart" ?
Also, was she reffing back to back with Bill Oliver? I heard a similar story with the above details
And for reference, I'm fairly certain I know who the best female ref in the country is, at least in sabre - and she was not at nationals.

I believe she is the best female ref (sabre) in the world, let alone the country, and she doesn't say stuff like that...she's a pretty good coach too .

[Hawkeye]

Still trying to figure out which team was black carded because one of the members decided they wanted to get thier nickers stenciled.... in the middle of the team bout.

lol.

Where was Bill Oliver reffing anyways? I wanted to talk a little bit, (I went to one of his refereeing siminars) but I couldn't find him.

Can't say much about the best female saber ref, I'm a foilest

Ciao, Hawkeye

[oiuyt]

Where was Bill Oliver reffing anyways? I wanted to talk a little bit, (I went to one of his refereeing siminars) but I couldn't find him.

As with all of the rest rest of us, wherever the bout committee ended up assigning our strips. He was doing sabre the entire week, but he was certainly around pretty much everywhere.

Whtouche- I believe the referee that you're referring to is male. And no, I don't know who it was, Bill Oliver didn't mention that detail when recounting the story. More fully for the rest of the board, the quote Whtouche provided was the response a referee gave when questioned about how some interpretation he had just given wasn't in compliance with what the rulebook says. Bill Oliver was on the strip that shared refereeing space with the referee in question.

-B :)

[BOliver]

Quote-
Whtouche- I believe the referee that you're referring to is male. And no, I don't know who it was, Bill Oliver didn't mention that detail when recounting the story. More fully for the rest of the board, the quote Whtouche provided was the response a referee gave when questioned about how some interpretation he had just given wasn't in compliance with what the rulebook says. Bill Oliver was on the strip that shared refereeing space with the referee in question

Hmm,

Sorry I missed that. I was doing saber all week, and I usually pay attention to what's in front of me, when I'm referee. Now, if I was FOC.....(all slacker referees should be looking over their shoulders!)

Do be assured that such behavior on the part of a referee rarely goes unnoticed by the FOC, and weighs heavily in the decision to use such a ref in the next round and definately when it comes time to hand out ratings increases.

Thanks to all for your comments about the referees and the running of the competition. I'll make a full report to the FOC and to those of the new Administration that will listen. This year was better than last. Last year was better than the year before. Hopefully, we're making progress.

About the apparent lack of practical examinations at Nationals, that's on purpose. We have very limited resources to conduct practical exams at Nationals, Examiners, Fencers, Strips, and Time. I don't know about you, but I never liked the idea of a "testing" referee doing bouts that might put me out of the competition! Practical exams are done, by policy, at a local/regional level -- never with bouts that might effect a point competition.

Feel free to contact me directly with observations about any referee - good or bad. The more feedback we get about our refs, the better the FOC will be able to do it's job in the future.

[Sabresque]

I'm fairly certain I know who the best female ref in the country is, at least in sabre - and she was not at nationals.

Yeah, what's up with that? I missed seeing her.

[Dee EffEll]

About the apparent lack of practical examinations at Nationals, that's on purpose. We have very limited resources to conduct practical exams at Nationals, Examiners, Fencers, Strips, and Time. I don't know about you, but I never liked the idea of a "testing" referee doing bouts that might put me out of the competition! Practical exams are done, by policy, at a local/regional level -- never with bouts that might effect a point competition.

It is my understanding that practical test for national directors' rating can't be done at the local/regional level. I attended the director's clinic (other than it taking an entire weekend, there *is* a lot to learn, but it sure hurts to wipe out an entire weekend learning the intracacies of the rule book) and have passed the written exams. But after that I was told "contact the national people to take a test, good luck." I inquired in Charlotte: "we aren't doing that this year." Seems ironic to say "we aren't testing for new referees, because we don't have enough referees." Hmmm...

We all seem to have lots to say about the availability and competency of directors, but who wants to sign up to be overworked, yelled at, abused and underpaid? I know of at least one internationally known and very fine director that will not be back for the 2005 USFA Summer Nationals: "Never again. Too much work, all day, no breaks. Very tired every day."

[BOliver]

It is my understanding that practical test for national directors' rating can't be done at the local/regional level.

That's simply not true. Ratings of 9 - 4 can be earned at any competition, sufficeintly strong to warrant such. Not all FOC examiners can give ratings as high as a 4, however. Policy states that FOC examiners can issue ratings up to two levels below their current rating in that weapon. The 4 is reserved for FOC members only.

The real problem is that local/regional competitions are often too weak to warrant the issuance of a higher rating. The formula is that a candidate referee must demonstrate competitance in bouts equivalent to a given level at a NAC. The Examiner has to make a determination about the strength of the competition and the skill that a referee candidate has to demonstrate to handle the bouts given him/her.

[/QUOTE]I attended the director's clinic (other than it taking an entire weekend, there *is* a lot to learn, but it sure hurts to wipe out an entire weekend learning the intracacies of the rule book) and have passed the written exams. But after that I was told "contact the national people to take a test, good luck." I inquired in Charlotte: "we aren't doing that this year." Seems ironic to say "we aren't testing for new referees, because we don't have enough referees." Hmmm...[/QUOTE]

We don't give examinations at seminars. There's too much to do, and that's not the format. Seminar first, then written exam. Once passed, a candidate can then be observed for a rating of 9 or higher (passing the written gives one a rating of 10.) Practical examinations can be given at any competition, but larger regionals and sectionals are the best bets. That's why an FOC rep is required at all sectional competition.

[/QUOTE]We all seem to have lots to say about the availability and competency of directors, but who wants to sign up to be overworked, yelled at, abused and underpaid? I know of at least one internationally known and very fine director that will not be back for the 2005 USFA Summer Nationals: "Never again. Too much work, all day, no breaks. Very tired every day."[/QUOTE]

Sad. But all too true. It IS a wonder that anyone will choose to be a referee.

[Schiavona]

Practical examinations can be given at any competition, but larger regionals and sectionals are the best bets. That's why an FOC rep is required at all sectional competition.

Except those where the Section Chair asks for a waiver and gets it. There was no FOC rep testing at the Pacific Northwest Sectionals this year. Why did the National office allow this when the Section had over $6000 in it's coffers? We were given the excuse that it would cost too much.

[counter riposte]

Bill,

You're right, it is a difficult thing to stand around all day, get yelled at, being told that "we've videotaped you making x number of bad calls and we'll be reporting you to the bout committee", and others tell you how bad a job you are doing. I spent the entire week standing at the side of a strip, judging actions for hours at a time, only to be followed by hours of sitting by the bout committee to check which USA today I hadn't read yet.

The fortunate thing is that its occasionally balanced out by the bout committee that thanks you for your hard work, the parent that says "I never understood fencing until I watched you direct" or the competitor that tells you "it was an honor having you as my director"

Small things like these make the ardous days like nationals all worth it.