Asian fencers in Lisbon

**jspierre** · 08-20-2002 03:47 PM

You've got to be impressed with the showing of Asian fencers in Lisbon.

Anybody know who trains the Korean epee team? I believe the Chinese train in the PRC, maybe with Russian coaches at some level?

Is there anything to the fact that the Chinese, Korean and Japanese martial arts are a large part of the popular culture in these countries, and that there's some important cross-over between Asian martial arts and fencing? Something that these Asian competitors have used to promote their fencing competitiveness? Zen concepts, for example?

**135711** · 08-20-2002 04:44 PM

i would imagine that anyone trained in hand to hand combat would have an 'edge' over someone who was never trained until later in life. the psychological advantage is there.

**epeefencer74** · 08-20-2002 06:11 PM

Yes the psychological advantage, i.e. "killer instinct" is there, fitness benefits as well, but I think you'll find that most of the asian fencers from the countries you mentioned have not trained in any other martial arts b/4 fencing.

Their trainning methods are very regimental. I know the chinese spot kids when they are around 10 or so and enrole them in a fencing school. Or parents wanting a better life for their kids would do this. The way the school functions is that in the morning from 6am till 7am it's morning excercise, eg. 3km run calisthenics and weights. 7:30 till about 1pm its school work. Then they break for lunch till 2pm and start fencing training till 7pm where it's dinner and homework till 9:30. Half an hour of TV or reading and its lights out at 10. They do this six days a week and it's about 1 coach to 5 students.

I think the Koreans have a similar regime for their adults and the Korean coach has absolute control and power over his fencers. I seen him hit a female fencer not once or twice but several times. Why becase she conceded a few pionts to my friend in the Asian games. And I'm not talking about a light slap on the wrist. Mind you the Korean won.

The Japenese I'm not sure. But what I've heard is that the fencers themselves are really dedicated and the train not because they are made to but because they want to.

**Jisahn** · 08-20-2002 06:14 PM

I couldn't tell you for sure whether or not Asian fencers are using martial art principles to enhance their fencing.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that fencing has been used to compliment an understanding of martial arts. I have been a long time student of Wing Chun, and throughout the years, fencing references have been used in discussions.

Unfortunatley, I believe it to be a mistake to train in the sport of fencing as if it were still a duel to the death. Fencing has evolved from self-defense to sport, and while the mentality of "kill or be killed" still exists, the techniques to support this do not (ie, stessi tempi parrying has been replaced with stesso tempo, flicks are used abundantly, etc.).

What say you?

**nahouw** · 08-20-2002 08:34 PM

Asian fencing doing well in World Championships should show the world that the decline of technique that has become acceptable under the mantle of "modern fencing" is countered quite effectively by teaching fencing along the lines of the martial art that it existed to be -- i.e. it is apparent that the so-called advances of modern fencing are not as effective as against the classical school of thought.

**darius** · 08-20-2002 08:37 PM

...are you saying Asians don't flick?

**edew** · 08-20-2002 11:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darius:
...are you saying Asians don't flick?<hr /></blockquote>Nahouw's comment is pretty much a load of horsecrap, ain't it? Young Ho Kim, Haibin Wang, all the other men's foilists, and the japanese foil fencers (female, primarily) all flick and use the latest "modern" fencing style. Watch the tapes. It's clear as day that their style is no different than the existing european style. Their footwork is superb. Their poise is superb. Their speed is incredible. But to claim some "classical" style demonstrates an utter lack of knowledge of their fencing style, or of fencing in general.

**achilleus** · 08-21-2002 12:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darius:
...are you saying Asians don't flick?<hr /></blockquote>Nahouw's comment is pretty much a load of horsecrap, ain't it? Young Ho Kim, Haibin Wang, all the other men's foilists, and the japanese foil fencers (female, primarily) all flick and use the latest "modern" fencing style. Watch the tapes. It's clear as day that their style is no different than the existing european style. Their footwork is superb. Their poise is superb. Their speed is incredible. But to claim some "classical" style demonstrates an utter lack of knowledge of their fencing style, or of fencing in general.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I think their style is quite different. I've heard interviews with the Korean coach and Kim, whose favorite action is what he calls the 'coupe' but we know it as the flick. The coach talked about how their style of fencing is based solely on speed, more speed, and lots of attacks, especially with flick.

While the European fencers are athletic, they don't rely on speed as much, they seem to rely on a wider array of actions. And they, dare I say it, rely on flicks much less than the Asian's I've seen.

It's makes sense, that countries that don't have a history of fencing, look at fencing from a different viewpoint, than those that do. When the USSR exploded onto the fencing scene after WWII, they brought strange new ideas. They didn't have a historical tradition to build upon, they saw a sport that they could win medals at. They used mobilty, speed, athleticism, and lots of strange actions that would get one killed in a duel.

While the European fencers are athletic, they don't rely on speed as much, they seem to rely on wider array of actions. And they, dare I say it, rely on flicks much less than the asian's I've seen.

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 08-21-2002 06:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jspierre:
You've got to be impressed with the showing of Asian fencers in Lisbon.

Anybody know who trains the Korean epee team? I believe the Chinese train in the PRC, maybe with Russian coaches at some level?

Is there anything to the fact that the Chinese, Korean and Japanese martial arts are a large part of the popular culture in these countries, and that there's some important cross-over between Asian martial arts and fencing? Something that these Asian competitors have used to promote their fencing competitiveness? Zen concepts, for example?<hr /></blockquote>Korean, Chinese, and Japanese fencing organizations have improved their fencing programs. That's it. To say it has to do with Zen or Asian martial arts is just over analysis. A long while back, I believe that the Korean fencing delegation asked the FIE to improve their fencing program and what you see now is the result of that.

Nahouw is completely wrong. If you watch fencing tapes of the Koreans, they fence just like everyone else. If they weren't wearing a mask, you wouldn't know whether they were white or Asian.

I think the Chinese have had a strong women's foil program. It's not new, maybe to jspierre it is.

[ 08-21-2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: three_hundred_fifty_five ]

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-21-2002 06:48 AM

As much as I'd love to be able to disagree, I must concur with 355. The one Korean foilist I've seen fenced just like his European counterpart.

My personal feeling is that the art of the foil is forever lost. Long Live the Epee du Combat!!

**135711** · 08-21-2002 05:55 PM

My personal feeling is that the art of the foil is forever lost. Long Live the Epee du Combat!![/QB][/QUOTE]

I hope not!

**swordsen** · 08-21-2002 07:24 PM

The art of foil is alive and well. It just doesn't look like the old style.

And anyone who thinks epee today is like what epee was 30 years ago hasn't been watching epee fencing for very long. Even when I started fencing in the '81 you would still find alot of epeeist who would take the old stand tall and extend your arm type guard. Epee has changed just as much as the other weapons in it's direct application.

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