Technical Perfection

**jspierre** · 08-20-2002 08:55 AM

Ok - now my question is, if techincal perfection is variously (a) a worthy goal in and of itself (b) or, a worthy goal for extremely practical, fencing reasons, (c) or inevitabaly necessary for fencing deep into tournaments, (d) or reflects historically refined experience, and therefore must have some good (which may or may not be revealed through faith and practice), (e) or all of the above, then:

Do you need to have a "rich and varied" technique to be successful (like what Kolger says), or can you be successful with, say, half a dozen actions that you can deploy in tempo, distance and real time with a 90%+ confidence level of success?

In other words, in training, is there an 80/20 rule, that is, a few moves perfected will overwhelmingly represent your tactical/technique basis for success almost all the time? Are there any top-level fencers that come to mind that fence and win consistently with nothing more than 3-5 actions?

Didn't the Germans simplfy the game? Don't the Italians (and French?) still love/teach the relatively obscure technique? Have international results reflected or validated one approach about variety of technique compared to another?

**epeefencer74** · 08-20-2002 04:58 PM

IMHO I think you can be succesful with a limited number of moves that have been practised to perfection, this is provided that you are fast, have an excellent sense of timing and distance. Over the standard 4 years that my students stay with me, they don't learn the full nine parries, nor do they learn all possible types of attacks. They learn 4 parries max and 5 diffrent types of simple attacks. These I teach in the second year. The first year they do nothing but footwork, I insist that they must master footwork b/4 I allow them a weapon. The third and fourth year I teach them how to combine all they have learnt into various systems. I am proud to say that they have done very well at the local competitions, They swept all the under-17 epee individual and team medals.

Having made the above statement I feel I must qualify this by saying that this is at a local level (Singapore), and that these boys are all fairly fit and healthy, of course under-17 and really really fast. All these play a significant role in their recent success. However, when they met the fencers in the senior national squad, though they don't get throughly trashed they cannot overcome the senior fencers. The seniors have a larger repertiore of moves to use to counter my students.

So yes you can be succesful up to a point, and there is certainly no harm in perfecting a few techniques first b/4 moving on to learn new ones. But I would personally never give up learning and mastering different techniques.

**swordsen** · 08-20-2002 06:40 PM

I would rather have 4 perfect actions than 10 sloppy ones.

**Inquartata** · 08-20-2002 06:46 PM

If those are the only choices, I agree. But OTOH, if you are fencing someone against whom none of those 4 actions work and you have nothing else, you are in trouble deep...

And there are no 4, or six, or what have you, actions that can cover all of the things other fencers may throw at you. There are too many idiosyncrasies of style and technique.

Fortunately, it isn't really a dichotomy. Few people can hone one action, much less a handful, to true "perfection"; and fewer still try.

And ultimately, it would make fencing a very boring activity, don't you think? If "Fencing is life", and "Variety is the spice of life", then logically variety is the spice of fencing!

**achilleus** · 08-20-2002 11:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jspierre:
Ok - now my question is, if techincal perfection is variously (a) a worthy goal in and of itself (b) or, a worthy goal for extremely practical, fencing reasons, (c) or inevitabaly necessary for fencing deep into tournaments, (d) or reflects historically refined experience, and therefore must have some good (which may or may not be revealed through faith and practice), (e) or all of the above, then:

Do you need to have a "rich and varied" technique to be successful (like what Kolger says), or can you be successful with, say, half a dozen actions that you can deploy in tempo, distance and real time with a 90%+ confidence level of success?

In other words, in training, is there an 80/20 rule, that is, a few moves perfected will overwhelmingly represent your tactical/technique basis for success almost all the time? Are there any top-level fencers that come to mind that fence and win consistently with nothing more than 3-5 actions?

Didn't the Germans simplfy the game? Don't the Italians (and French?) still love/teach the relatively obscure technique? Have international results reflected or validated one approach about variety of technique compared to another?<hr /></blockquote>There have been and are a number of top level fencers who used the 3-5 actions over an over, however, they did so at the perfect time. These fencer's can do almost everything, but they just perfect a small number of actions.

Elmar Borrman (GER) would run forward, sweep his blade like a winshield wiper (6 and 2nd), and if he found your blade he would hit you. If he didn't, he would stop, pause then dive for the toe. He won 2 world championships doing this. No one ever accused him of being smart, just quick, strong, and very aggressive.

When Iris Zimmerman first won the cadet worlds, an observer noted that she was the only one who could flick to the back, and no one could stop it.

Ann Marsh, was ranked as high as 7th in the world standings, always makes the same steps forward with the sweep in 7, and flick.

Don't get me wrong, all these fencers can do lots of other actions, but they really rely on 3-5 actions.

Perfection is impossible, learning everything is impossible, and no one is great at everything. That's just they way fencing (life) is. But this doesn't mean that fencer's don't try to learn or perfect everything.

**Gav** · 08-20-2002 11:32 PM

While it's true that no-one can do everything (I, for some reason, am awful at quarte) it's important to at least be able to execute those moves outside of your specialities. Limiting yourself from day 1 to a very limited set of moves leaves you open to those who habitually perform actions that work against your 'type'.

Having said that I would admit that being as profficient as possible in your 'core' moves is very important.

**achilleus** · 08-20-2002 11:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gav:
While it's true that no-one can do everything (I, for some reason, am awful at quarte) it's important to at least be able to execute those moves outside of your specialities. Limiting yourself from day 1 to a very limited set of moves leaves you open to those who habitually perform actions that work against your 'type'.

Having said that I would admit that being as profficient as possible in your 'core' moves is very important.<hr /></blockquote>I thought I pointed out that the top fencers do everything, they just do a couple of things really well?

If I didn't make that clear, sorry.

If your just agreeing with my comment, and adding emphasis, cool beans.

**Gav** · 08-20-2002 11:54 PM

I'm just adding emphasis. I just wanted to get my thoughts off my chest.

**Catlady** · 08-21-2002 06:24 PM

To some extent, I'd say all of the above.

I'm all in favor of breaking rules on ocassion, however before you break the rules it's important to learn what the rules are and why they exist. Then, after you've done that if you have a good reason for doing so, knock yourself out.

[ 08-21-2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Catlady ]

**veeco** · 08-22-2002 09:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gav:
(I, for some reason, am awful at quarte)<hr /></blockquote>The reason is that you are lefty.

Lefties have to work harder to get the 4 correctly. Took me more than a year of 1 on 1 work with my coach to be able to start doing "decent" 4s in bouts.

**Gav** · 08-22-2002 10:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> quote:Originally posted by Gav:
(I, for some reason, am awful at quarte)The reason is that you are lefty.

Lefties have to work harder to get the 4 correctly. Took me more than a year of 1 on 1 work with my coach to be able to start doing "decent" 4s in bouts. <hr /></blockquote>You're right of course.

I've been working on quarte redently and I've discovered that my wrist doesn't pronate easily. I damaged my wrist badly when I started and I guess it never fully recovered. It's not sore I just can't move it easily into pronation.

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