the crucial difference between a riposte and a remise?

[dragonlady7]

Pardon me for sounding like a total n00b, but I'm in the midst of writing up an article about fencing for non-fencers (for writers, actually) and am stumped as I try to explain the difference between a riposte and a remise.

A riposte is basically the reply to an attack, is how I've explained it. (Hence the use of the word "riposte" to describe lines in conversations.)
And the remise is a reply to the reply.

What if there are several ripostes before the touch? I've heard actions described "attack, parry, riposte, parry, riposte, parry, riposte, remise"-- is "remise" reserved for the final 'reply', the one that actually lands?

Or is there something else I am missing?

I know that it is important to differentiate for simple keeping-track-of-actions concerns.
But to be honest, the whole time I was fencing, I bothered myself very little with the terms once I knew what they meant and roughly how they were used. It's only now that I am trying to explain them to outsiders that I feel the need to be scrupulously correct.

Thanks for helping clear up this minor confusion...

-dl7

[mifencer]

Don't worry about sounding like a noob. That's what we're here for, to support one another.

Riposte - after successfully defending oneself, the defender attacks (with priority).
Remise - after not successfully hitting on the attack, the attacker loses priority but hits anyways (without priority).

i.e.:
fencer x attacks. fencer y parries and immediately hits. fencer x hits fencer y after y's hit.

first action results in nothing (fencer x attacks)
second actions results in fencer's y's riposte (fencer y parries and immediately hits)
third actions results in fencer x's remise (fencer x hits fencer y after y's hit).

I hope this helps.

[jeff]

All will become clear

An attack gets parried, giving the right to the defender to make a riposte. In non-techie imprecise words: you protect yourself by blocking the attacking blade and then hit back: that hitting back is the riposte, and it should be done immediately after the parry (without going into the possible exceptions). So, attack, parry, riposte is the standard phrase.

Now, the initial attacker typically wants to parry the riposte, at which point he/she has the right to make a riposte as well: attack, parry, riposte, parry, riposte, and on and on back and forth until somebody is hit or the fencers break off the action. This is sometimes called "the conversation of the blades".

Alternatively, the initial attacker can, after being parried, can simply renew his attack: that's the remise (that is, stick the point out and try again). So, while the riposte is the offensive action you make after parrying an attack, the remise is the 2nd (or 3rd) offensive action done by the original attacker after being parried.

The rules give right of way to the riposte, so if there is a parry riposte and a remise, the initial attacker is considered hit (unless the riposte is delayed or a compound action).

Hope that helps...

[dragonlady7]

Ahhhhh....
Thanks very much! That cleared that up very well, and is also a good explanation of why, now as I remember, I never heard the phrase "parry-remise".

Y'all are the best.

[cfaustus]

Ahhhhh....
Thanks very much! That cleared that up very well, and is also a good explanation of why, now as I remember, I never heard the phrase "parry-remise".

Of course, you might remise your riposte: Parry-Failed Riposte-Remise...

[ShadowHuntr]

Of course, you might remise your riposte: Parry-Failed Riposte-Remise...

*gasp* failed riposte!? there is no such thing! riposte, no. remise =)

hah, im just kidding, with you

[Artisan]

redoublement

[klauver]

Don't forget the reprise vs. the remise!

[dragonlady7]

Can I ask a nuther dumb question (Sorry-- I am so rusty...)? Is 7 below 4 or 6? I forget which is 7 and which is 8. I mostly fenced sabre so I'm not sure I even learned to parry 7 or 8...

[klauver]

7 is below 4

[dragonlady7]

7 is below 4

THANK you.

Another dumb question, in case there's anyone not tired of them yet : What, precisely, technically, specifically, is redoublement?

[ShadowHuntr]

Don't forget the reprise vs. the remise!

not so much reprise vs remise as reprise vs. redoublement (ref's study guide) that one gets me every time

[gojujay]

THANK you.

Another dumb question, in case there's anyone not tired of them yet : What, precisely, technically, specifically, is redoublement?

Attacker fails in initial attack, pulls arm back and attacks again, to the same line (I think it's the same line, or is that a reprise?)

[Zelda]

redoublement is same line, reprise is different line. (I did this with my coach last week!)

[darius]

dragonlady --

I wasn't aware that you lived in Rochester any more; if you're hanging out in town, you should stop by practice at UR, then I won't forget about going to Nick Tahou's!

darius

[esskreemr]

You'll find that these mean different things to different people. They are not necessarily wrong, there can be multiple answers for the same term. There are many variations in the different schools of fencing (French, Italian, Spanish, etc.) with similar sounding terms that mean something different, and even more mistranslations of the original terms. See the other article on counter-time and sit back with a large cup of coffee. Start here if your embarassed to ask noobie questions:
http://www.fencing101.com/glossary.php

I'll give you they way I learned it (through reading, instruction, bouting and reading multiple definitions on the web), and then two definitions that you can find on the web.

The way I've learned it:

remise: continuation of the initial attack, simple action without withdrawing the arm (no change in line), after the opponent has parried or avoided the attack. So Fencer A advances into a half-lunge, Fencer B steps back and barely avoids the point but does not riposte, Fencer A leans forward and lands a point. Fencer A's final action is a remise. It's a counter-attack if made into a riposte. To say that it is made after the defender has failed to riposte is not correct (IMHO) because it can be made with opposition.

reprise: The initial attack has been launched and has missed, the defender has parried or avoided the attack and does not take priority. Initial attacker assumes en guarde and starts a new attack attack. I believe the assumption of en guarde could also be forward.

Redoublement: Have to admit that this is a rarely (if ever) used term in my club. From my understanding: It is a renewal of the attack with a forward return to enguarde (think lunge-forward recovery-lunge; the second lunge is a redoublement). It can also be a renewal of the initial (failed) attack (opponent parries or avoids) without returning to enguarde but while remaining in the same line (lunge - advance -disengage/lunge. So it can either be a reprise with forward recovery into en guarde or a remise with change of line.

The reference:
The remise: A simple and immediate offensive action which follows the original attack, without withdrawing the arm, after the opponent has parried or retreated, when the latter has either quitted contact with the blade without riposting or has made a riposte which is delayed, indirect or compound.
or
Remise: immediate replacement of an attack that missed or was parried, without withdrawing the arm

The redoublement: A new action, either simple or compound, made against an opponent who has parried without riposting or who has merely avoided the first action by retreating or displacing the target
or
Redoublement: a new action that follows an attack that missed or was parried; renewal of a failed attack in the opposite line; alternatively see Reprise.

The reprise of the attack: A new attack executed immediately after a return to the on-guard position.
or
Reprise: renewal of an attack that missed or was parried, after a return to en-garde; alternatively see Redoublement


I hope this helps. The research has helped clarify it in my mind. Thanks.