Wireless TKD Scoring (fencing mentioned)

[neevel]

Just came across this article on the BBC website about a wireless scoring system devised for competitive Tae Kwon Do:

Martial arts lands wireless blow.

It makes mention of how the developers looked into using the technology for fencing, but would require rule changes (I suspect it may relate to use of RF).

There's a photo of a sabre bout using the StM wireless system, with the somewhat out-of-place (at least for sabre) caption that "the fencing world did not take to wireless sensors".

-Dave

[noodle]

relavent link

[DHCJr]

I can give some background the company did and Eric Dew can give a lot more. The company I believe is based in the Bay area. They did a lot of research at the 2002 Pentathlon World Championship at Stanford. They talked to me and Eric as well as a lot of other people. They were going to do further work with Eric, since he was in the area and had a club where tests could be made.

I'm afraid, I was probably the most forceful in talking about the FIE rules and the difficulty in getting them to change. The FIE still needs to get into the 21st century or at least into the last half of the 20th century.

At the '93 Worlds, they were still using a bread-board based system, much like the old-style telephone operator switchboard to test machines. They are set against any use of RF or IR. Look at the 'Approved' Sabre wireless boxes.

Eric, can you give a little bit more information?

[noodle]

indeed, the fie rules would be the toughest thing to do. piezoelectric sensors have no travel time, after all
(imho, they'd have to be used for tips and not for lames, lames would be too tough to implement like the tkd chest protectors in all the weapons)

[neevel]

I suspect that widespread adoption of wireless fencing will become a bottom-up sort of affair. Someone will come up with a practical, reasonably-priced wireless 3-weapon system that employs spread-spectrum technology. It won't be useable at FIE competitions, but will become popular in clubs and at local tournaments. Eventually it will become sufficiently widespread and proven in its use that the FIE will be comfortable with altering the rules to officially permit it.

-Dave

[ShadowHuntr]

why did the caption in the article say that wireless fencing wasnt successful? i thought the FIE were slowly intragrating it into more widespread use. i could be wrong but wasnt like from the round of 32 and beyond at the NYC world cup all wireless sabre?

[DHCJr]

It depends on what you consider successful. The original patent that this system was built on came from the late 50's. To make it 'Work', takes from half-hour to 45 minutes to get the fencer set up. The fencers are required to wear a metal band next to their skin and it must be fitted each time. Then they have to build the scoring system into their mask and then hook it all up. The machine on the table means nothing. If the lights in the mask say one thing and the box says something different, it is the mask light that has priority. How is that for making it more understandable for the audience?

It only works on Sabre, so for any multi-weapon competition you still need reels, floor cords and regular boxes. Also you can not buy a box to try out. The boxes are rented and the organizers are required to bring over 4 factory technicians.

The reason why the box on the table is 'Not Used' is it gets it's signal by RF. So saying it is wireless is an outright lie, because the fencer carries the box and he is wired to it. You could say it is a reel-less system, but that is all.

[C.J.]

I don't quit understand what "controversial" about kick and punch the article was reffering to. Anybody know the sport well enough to explain?

[DHCJr]

Let me try and put this into an analogous fencing comparison. Let us say that instead of having a Foil tip that breaks a circuit, we had a solid tip that only completes the circuit against the lame. There would be no way to tell how hard the tip landed. You would have the judges decide if the hit was hard enough. Let us further say that many referees do not think a flick hits with enough force. They would disallow those touches.

In Tae Kwon Do you can hit with the foot or the hand. There are many judges who appear to discount many hits with the hand as not being hard enough. I am no expert, just from what I have read. I hope this helped.

[edew]

I can give some background the company did and Eric Dew can give a lot more. The company I believe is based in the Bay area. They did a lot of research at the 2002 Pentathlon World Championship at Stanford. They talked to me and Eric as well as a lot of other people. They were going to do further work with Eric, since he was in the area and had a club where tests could be made.

I'm afraid, I was probably the most forceful in talking about the FIE rules and the difficulty in getting them to change. The FIE still needs to get into the 21st century or at least into the last half of the 20th century.

At the '93 Worlds, they were still using a bread-board based system, much like the old-style telephone operator switchboard to test machines. They are set against any use of RF or IR. Look at the 'Approved' Sabre wireless boxes.

Eric, can you give a little bit more information?

Sorry, haven't approached those guys since the 2002 WChamp Pentathlon. Their idea is RF or something similar based. Essentially, they needed to know the conditions and after Donald's and my explanation, it was not as easy as they thought.

The "wireless" TKD scoring system is hooked to the three judges, not to the fighters. The judges press a button on either hand (one for one fighter, the other for the other fighter) indicating a hit. If at least two of the three set off the indicator within a certain period of time, the hit counts as a score. If there's too much lag, there's no score. This is done to prevent biased (or incompetent as well) judging. There's nothing worn by the fighters themselves to indicate a hit.

The wireless part is that the signals are sent to the scoring system without wires so that the judges can roam around to see the action (they don't stand there like saber referees).

[edew]

Dr. Ed Chi is at PARC close to where I live (and work). Maybe I'll go there to contact him about a fencing version. The problem he had was approaching it from a top-down (administratively) direction. FIE won't like it because of the RF (or whatever non-physical signalling method) format, but the rest of the world would, just to get rid of the cabling needed.

[hpfencing]

Swordmaster had a complete wireless system on demo last summer at nationals... I tried it out and it was pretty cool. Estoc was the maker of the box I think. Maybe Scott will post info on this, I have not seen the box or sensors on the Swordmaster website but I know it was working for Epee at nationals in 2003 (as demo only).

[neevel]

Swordmaster had a complete wireless system on demo last summer at nationals... I tried it out and it was pretty cool. Estoc was the maker of the box I think. Maybe Scott will post info on this, I have not seen the box or sensors on the Swordmaster website but I know it was working for Epee at nationals in 2003 (as demo only).

I asked Scott about this system the NY Grand Prix. He couldn't give much technical information, but the price apparently is going to be something north of $2K or so. With a set of Favero reels and an Eigertek, Favero or Blue Sky box costing well under half that, I can't see it really taking off.

-Dave

[noodle]

I don't quit understand what "controversial" about kick and punch the article was reffering to. Anybody know the sport well enough to explain?

tkd is a very kick-intensive martial art
the general idea is that punches don't do as much damage as kicks, so some refs don't count them. kind of like how some refs don't like flicks so they don't give them (much) row. when i was actively competing, the solution was not to count front-hand shots to anything 'cept the head.

afaik, the sensors in the chest protectors would count as a fourth judge on a hit if it had enough force. if a punch lands with enough force to set off the sensors (i'd think the sensors would be pretty tough to set off, this is a big issue), one of the refs are bound to see it and click in. the one ref and the system click in for 2, thats enough to register the point.

Let me try and put this into an analogous fencing comparison. Let us say that instead of having a Foil tip that breaks a circuit, we had a solid tip that only completes the circuit against the lame. There would be no way to tell how hard the tip landed. You would have the judges decide if the hit was hard enough. Let us further say that many referees do not think a flick hits with enough force. They would disallow those touches.

well, i mean, with piezoelectric sensors, you could have one that is set to not go off unless x ammount of pressure is applied to it. so, if the circuit is complete and the sensor is going off and this state is held for whatever the timing is, its a good hit, flick or not. only problem i can see is the compensation for travel time. not sure how that would be handled if there is no travel distance in the tips. weight testing and such would still be the same, pretty much. (fixing the tips would be a pain, though)

[DHCJr]

Maybe what I said was not clear. First of all, since travel is not an issue in Foil, the piezoelectric would still work with breaking the circuit.

What I was trying to give was a way where there was no weight test, just a method of tell that there was contact with the target area and the referee would determine the hit was hard enough.

I was trying to give a way, they could understand a different sport and compare it to what could have happened with fencing.

Back in 56 or even earlier, they could have done something like that instead of making use of a tip. In fact that was done before electric fencing where you were judged by your form as well as your point.

I hope that makes my statements more understandable. Sorry for the confusion.

[noodle]

Maybe what I said was not clear. First of all, since travel is not an issue in Foil, the piezoelectric would still work with breaking the circuit.

What I was trying to give was a way where there was no weight test, just a method of tell that there was contact with the target area and the referee would determine the hit was hard enough.

I was trying to give a way, they could understand a different sport and compare it to what could have happened with fencing.

Back in 56 or even earlier, they could have done something like that instead of making use of a tip. In fact that was done before electric fencing where you were judged by your form as well as your point.

I hope that makes my statements more understandable. Sorry for the confusion.

ok, that makes more sense. i thought you were stating an argument and not a hypothetical situation.
fencing would be even more inconsistant of a sport in the callings of the refs if the ref had to also determine if a hit was hard enough. its tough enough as it is for most refs to to simply determine whose turn it is to attack.