Perfect Lunge

[millsisland]

I'm trying to find written instructions for a lunge, to be passed on to a Pilates instructor.

Are these, found on eHow.com, correct? Do you have anything to add or dispute?

http://www.ehow.com/how_11758_lunge-fencing.html

Thanks,

Mills

[oiuyt]

Are you kidding?

"1. Straighten the sword arm while simultaneously inclining the torso progressively forward and bringing the hand to shoulder level."

I would neither incline the torso (all three weapons) nor bring the hand to shoulder level (foil/sabre).

"2. Lift the leading foot slightly - toe first - only after you've completely straightened the sword arm."

While I would start the hand first I would certainly NOT wait until I've finished the extension before starting the foot.

"3. Push hard with the left leg to propel the body rapidly forward."

Minor detail that this only applies to RH fencers, left should read rear.

"5. Wait until halfway through the lunge to vigorously throw the rear arm directly backward until it forms a straight line parallel to the floor, palm upward, fingers together, thumb out."

I wouldn't do it vigorously. Arguable to what extent it should be done at all, especially in sabre.

"8. Keep the sole of the rear foot flat on the floor and prevent it from sliding."

There are times when a lunge should involve sliding. I know of several sabre coaches who teach that virtually every lunge should include a bit of slide in the rear foot (covering the same total distance but resulting in a smaller, shallower lunge which can be recovered from faster (albeit closer to one's opponent)).

This is NOT the document that I would choose to use as a starting point for a description of how to lunge. Half of the steps are, at least partially, flawed.

Then again, here are the steps given on the page for how to advance lunge (Note: This is not just the beginning of the instructions, these three steps are the only ones listed):

How to Execute an Advance Lunge When Fencing
To deliver a thrust or cut to an adversary who is beyond lunging distance, it is necessary to precede the lunge with a step forward, or attack with an "advance lunge."

Steps:
1. Begin the advance lunge from the guard position.

2. Step forward with the leading foot along the line of direction one shoe length.

3. Execute an Appel When Fencing

EHow is NOT a reliable source of fencing information (check out a few more of their fencing related pages). Makes one wonder who wrote for them....

Heh, just read the page on how to buy fencing equipment. Here's an excerpt:

9. Purchase a standard Italian foil if the store has one. Otherwise, ask it to order one, or buy a standard French foil.

10. Reject suggestions to buy a foil with an orthopedic grip.

11. Get a wrist strap if you buy an Italian foil.

-B :)

[jBirch]

Mills,

Pretty good except for the leaning forward comment. Don't. It's bad and leaves you weak for follow up moves. As well, keep your arm straight, but relaxed: just before full extension w/o locking the elbow.

Take it easy.

[millsisland]

The point here is to provide correct lunging instructions to a Pilates instructor who is working with a fencer recovering from an injury.

A set of concise, sequencial intructions or advice on where to find them would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

Mills

[angrylemur]

I'll try and write some quick and somewhat concise instructions to lunging. Don't know how good I am at explaining this so feel free to disagree with me guys

1. Hand first. This DOESN'T mean your arm has to be straight before your feet start moving, just get it going a little bit. Try not to stiffen or completely lock out the arm, and keep the shoulders relaxed.

2. Kick with the front leg. Try not to lean forward very much. Make sure your toes point forward.

3. Push with the back leg. A little slide is fine but seeing as I don't know what person X is recovering from it probably isn't a bad idea to take it a bit easy in this department.

THINGS TO CHECK AFTER THE LUNGE:

1. Toes are forward.

2. Front knee is not over front toes.

3. Torso is more or less upright.

4. Hip is not sticking out.

5. Upper body is relaxed.

6. If using a blade, tip is pointing to general target area.

There is probably more but I have to go to fencing so please help me out if I forgot stuff guys!

[Zelda]

Millsisland, I would have to check, but if you want I may be able to put you in email contact with my pilates instructor, she knows what sort of movements a fencer does and what type of exercises seem to work.

[daeceg]

The rear arm parallel?
I usually end up with my arm pointed slightly to the ground...<blink, blink>

[Schiavona]

An important point-the front foot should land heel first this acts as a shock absorber, landing toe first can really mess a foot/ankle/knee. Rear leg straightens, pushing the body/torso forward. This is the reason we walk all funny with our knees bent so

Nothing REALLY wrong with the hand/arm discription-just 30 years out of date

[741]

I was told that the front foot should be close to the floor/not raised too high when lunging too. Is this correct?

[MikeHarm]

I thought on the front foot you lift the front heel just a hair before lifting the front toe when you're doing it right.

[Schiavona]

I thought on the front foot you lift the front heel just a hair before lifting the front toe when you're doing it right.

My Kung Fu is different from your Kung Fu..................

[Twinkletoes]

Yeah,I think the front foot should skim the floor to keep your
forward motion horizontal. Raising the foot too high as it extends
makes you "bob" in an arc as you lunge, thus taking more time to
perform and creating a hard landing for your leading foot.

I've seen coaches use a coin placed on the floor; as you lunge the
front foot skims the coin with the heel, propelling it straight forward a few metres.


cheers,

Marc

[Artisan]

We were also taught "Toe First" on the advance / or lunge. Why? Lifting the toe, tenses the muscles in the front of the leg -and prepairs the leg including the thigh for extension. Lifting the heel does the opposite, firing the muscles of the calf and back of thigh, which is a flexion reaction. I think the idea is that by lifing the toes first, you train the body to automatically fire the muscles to extend the leg more quickly.

More practically: a raised toe helps prevent you from tripping over the inevitable wrinkles, solder patches and tape wads that most tired-out metallic mesh strips inevitable accumulate.

[Allen Evans]

Raising the heel first also starts to shift the weight BEFORE any actual forward motion of the torso occurs. This telegraphs the lunge.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[MikeHarm]

Hmm.. I've been playing with the front toe up first, and heel up first.. it seems more effective to me lifting the heel a little, but I'll play with both some more. Here is what I was getting the stuff about heel lifting being good from:

Excerpt from the Dave Littell Site, lessons with Victor:

Think for a moment about the relationship between the movement of walking and the movement of fencing. When you take a step the first thing you do is gently support your weight on one foot and release the other hip, knee, and ankle. What I mean by that is your knee bends forward easily, your heel comes up a bit and your hip joint releases as your knee bends forward. This releasing of the joints allows your foot to swing forward freely without having to disrupt your pelvis--meaning your pelvis does not have to rise up and your head can stay level and your walking remains smooth.

As applied to fencing, this means that when moving the front foot on the advance, the first thing that happens is the front heel comes off the ground slightly as the hip releases and front knee bends (going forward--not up). From here the front foot can swing forward just as with walking without disrupting the pelvis. Moving the back leg seems to be more difficult for fencers because of the direction of the knee. Here, the beginning of the movement is the same as the front foot, release the hip knee and ankle (the knee goes out to the side). Only then can the back foot can come up without lifting the back hip (a common problem).

When you see a fencer who does not release the front leg and swing it freely forward, you see their weight go too far forward, and their foot generally moves forward fairly flat. At this point many instructors will make the correction, lift your front toe forward first. The intention is correct--on a good advance the foot does swing forward from the knee and the front toe swings forward and up. However, the correction can have the opposite effect of what is really intended. If you literally lift the front toe without releasing the joints (and lifting the heel) first, you literally have to lift the entire leg at once--a much more strenuous and awkward movement. Try walking by lifting your toes and see how hard and awkward this is.

[Schiavona]

Hmm.. I've been playing with the front toe up first, and heel up first.. it seems more effective to me lifting the heel a little, but I'll play with both some more. Here is what I was getting the stuff about heel lifting being good from:

Excerpt from the Dave Littell Site, lessons with Victor:

Think for a moment about the relationship between the movement of walking and the movement of fencing. When you take a step the first thing you do is gently support your weight on one foot and release the other hip, knee, and ankle. What I mean by that is your knee bends forward easily, your heel comes up a bit and your hip joint releases as your knee bends forward. This releasing of the joints allows your foot to swing forward freely without having to disrupt your pelvis--meaning your pelvis does not have to rise up and your head can stay level and your walking remains smooth.

As applied to fencing, this means that when moving the front foot on the advance, the first thing that happens is the front heel comes off the ground slightly as the hip releases and front knee bends (going forward--not up). From here the front foot can swing forward just as with walking without disrupting the pelvis. Moving the back leg seems to be more difficult for fencers because of the direction of the knee. Here, the beginning of the movement is the same as the front foot, release the hip knee and ankle (the knee goes out to the side). Only then can the back foot can come up without lifting the back hip (a common problem).

When you see a fencer who does not release the front leg and swing it freely forward, you see their weight go too far forward, and their foot generally moves forward fairly flat. At this point many instructors will make the correction, lift your front toe forward first. The intention is correct--on a good advance the foot does swing forward from the knee and the front toe swings forward and up. However, the correction can have the opposite effect of what is really intended. If you literally lift the front toe without releasing the joints (and lifting the heel) first, you literally have to lift the entire leg at once--a much more strenuous and awkward movement. Try walking by lifting your toes and see how hard and awkward this is.

When walking you are moving from the hips/pelvis, lifting at the hip to start the forward movement of the leg. Movement in fencing with our 'squat' stance should be from the knees, thus the description as a 'kick' swung from the knee. Moving from the knees and not the hips should keep a fencer from bobbing up and down.