06-21-2004, 04:40 AM
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#1 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 22,893
| Not PIL, what IS it?
How would one call this action in sabre?
A begins an attack and falls short. Rather than retreat he stays extended, but with his blade in a cutting, not thrusting, posture---ie at about a 45 degree angle, guard at about waist level. B begins his attack ( or counterattack, or riposte, let's not get into THAT again! ), but seeing A's blade out there and his immobile posture decides to try to beat A's blade. As he does so he runs into A's still-motionless but non-PIL blade.
I am at a loss as to what one would call A's touch. It isn't an attack, a counterattack or a riposte, as far as I can tell, certainly it's not PIL ( though that's what the referee called it ). Unintentional remise? | 
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06-21-2004, 05:21 AM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 1,528
| Best I could come up up with would to call it; A attack no, B attack no, A remise yes. Or just B attack no, A remise yes. Otherwise A attack no, BIL(blade-in-line) yes.
Kinda opens up that whole 'cutting' in Sabre can of worms, eh? 
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06-21-2004, 05:51 AM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vermont USA
Posts: 1,536
| I would call that attack in preperation. . . B begins his attack while A counters, but then B prepares by searching for the blade and B's counter-attack becomes attack in preperation. . . Remise is the same thing as an attack, it's just one after you finish your first attack, then go again, so you still have to say that A was attacking, even though he fulfilled none of the requirements of attacking.
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06-21-2004, 06:13 AM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Holland
Posts: 861
| A stands motionless and B misses the beat? in what universe....
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06-21-2004, 06:27 AM
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#5 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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| Well, he found the blade, actually, but as A's blade touched his arm. B is left-handed, A right-handed.
See, I was under the impression that an attack required the arm to be extending, or at least for the blade to be moving under the volition of the wielder. If the point had been in line the call would be easy---B "walks into" it. But there was no PIL, only...edge in line? Motionless. | |
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06-21-2004, 07:10 AM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Holland
Posts: 861
| I'm not sure....
I'm inclined to agree with attack in prep of A, but it could also be the beat-attack and the counter-attack, I'd have to see it to call it...
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06-21-2004, 08:31 AM
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#7 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
| Descrive this cutting posture. Was A's in low four or six? Doesn't really matter in this situation though.
In my opinion:
If B is hit during his attempted beat, it is A's remise.
If B beats then is hit while completing attack, B's attack; A's counterattack.
If B missed the beat and is hit, A's remise.
I'm sure there's some fancy French or Italian word for passively renewing an attack...
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06-21-2004, 08:48 AM
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#8 | | The Judge
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,103
| i was pressed into making a call, it would be attack into preparation, same reasoning as theone's.
guy attacks, but then wiggs out over the blade so he searches, in the process of searching, the extended blade hits him. attacker's initial attack was good, but went into preparation, so attack into preparation. | |
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06-21-2004, 10:39 AM
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#9 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 22,893
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by esskreemr Descrive this cutting posture. Was A's in low four or six? | Nope---tierce.
I dunno how you can remise ( or anything else other than PIL ) without moving. | |
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06-21-2004, 11:46 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 393
| I don't fence or direct sabre so take my 2 cents with a large grain of salt, but isn't A's touch passe and hence invalid (t.70 (b))?
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06-21-2004, 12:07 PM
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#11 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: CA area
Posts: 6,046
| This is an interesting question. I think it can also apply to foil as well. A fencer is in some non-threatening position (on guard, or what have you). The opponent approaches and impales himself onto that blade before initiating an offensive action.
Maybe the solution is to black card the impalee as colluding with non-moving fencer.
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06-21-2004, 12:58 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 143
| A apparently fell asleep after they finished their initial attack. Someone wake him/her up!
No, seriously, this is one of those situations where the referee either groans struglling to put the action into words or just holds up a hand and says, "one light".
A never did anything (after his initial attack) that indicated an attack. But it's not technically a counterattack because B never did an attack, either. Maybe, "counterattack into preparation"? I'm reaching here. From the way you describe it, it sounds like it is A's point because A's blade lands before B ever began an attack, so new new attacks can start after that.
Last edited by fence1848; 06-21-2004 at 01:26 PM.
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06-21-2004, 01:48 PM
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#13 | | Member
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 62
| From your description, it sounds as though fencer B had initiated an attack (he made a beat, didn't he?). So he had right of way at that point, and if his attack landed, the point would be his, regardless of when A's blade touched him. Assuming that, for some reason, his attack didn't land, then the point is A's (one light).
What to call it is really a moot point, but it's all a matter of ROW. It can't be POL, because that assumes ROW, which fencer A didn't have at that time. It also can't be attack into preparation because that also would be saying that fencer A had ROW, by reason of stolen tempo. It would have to be either a counterattack or a remise. Since this is still a continuation of a phrase initiated by fencer A, you would have to call it: Fencer A attack: no, Fencer B attack: no, Fencer A remise: yes.
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06-21-2004, 02:22 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 588
| A attacks.... his attack is no
B starts a beat attack and..... he finds the blade before he is struck. Beat Attack B
B starts a beat attack and.... he does NOT find the blade but lands after the missed take. Search B, As touch into Bs prep.
B is struck before taking action with the remise of As attack..... touch A.
It all sounds quite ugly to me.....
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06-21-2004, 02:41 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 355
| This is a case of two wrongs making a right of way  | |
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06-21-2004, 02:43 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: West Lafayette, IN
Posts: 294
| I would also call
Attack from A is No
Beat Attack from B is No
Remise from A arrives, touch for A.
As the title of the thread indicates there is no PIL to discuss. B beats and does not finish, A has made no effort to parry. Remise is really the best word to describe the action.
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06-21-2004, 02:48 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,755
| Uhhh...I don't know...en garde, please. | |
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06-21-2004, 02:52 PM
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#18 | | Member
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 62
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by GGK This is a case of two wrongs making a right of way | eeeeewwwwww!
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06-22-2004, 04:20 AM
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#19 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by fence1848 No, seriously, this is one of those situations where the referee either groans struglling to put the action into words or just holds up a hand and says, "one light".
A never did anything (after his initial attack) that indicated an attack. But it's not technically a counterattack because B never did an attack, either. Maybe, "counterattack into preparation"? I'm reaching here. From the way you describe it, it sounds like it is A's point because A's blade lands before B ever began an attack, so new new attacks can start after that. | Alas---both lights went on. | |
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06-22-2004, 04:26 AM
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#20 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 22,893
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by RETLAG From your description, it sounds as though fencer B had initiated an attack (he made a beat, didn't he?). So he had right of way at that point, and if his attack landed, the point would be his, regardless of when A's blade touched him. | B began an attack, but broke it to make a beat. As he found A's blade, A's blade brushed his arm. In fact B really brought his arm into contact with A's blade rather than A doing anything.
In the event the ref called it PIL, more out of perplexity than anything else, I think. | |
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