Refusing to fence someone.

[fluidfencer]

One more comment and then I'll leave it to everyone else.

It may be that there are differences in the way the sport is viewed in your club versus mine, or your country versus mine... It may be that we have a lot of young fencers that are better than most adults... or that I help run a club and am trying to develop it so we can attract new fencers... maybe because our club is very new and we are a bit idealistic regarding sportmanship. I'm really not sure, but the opinion is strongly grounded in our club.

Here's what I expect would happen. If the fencer wasn't carded after the scenario I described, I would talk to them as tournament director. That would address the problem in most cases. If they ignor the request, they would be ejected and invited not to return. The result is 100 fencers who can enjoy a day of high level fencing safely, and one disgrutled jerk who won't.

The approach you describe is a generation or two old. It's sounds like the approach that tolerates the class bully because "that's how kids are". You can't fix a problem by ignoring it.

I tried to be pretty specific regarding the circumstances and assume you understood them. The description given about the older fencer, however, makes me a little unsure of that. It sounds like you were saying the he was a fencer who was very aggressive, which is fine with me... that he hit your mask with his bellguard ONCE (and apologized), which I know happens and is understandable... and that he didn't do it again. Are you saying that the fact that you hit him hard in the chest was the reason he didn't do it, and that I should teach our fencers to use a brutal hit to stop a brutal hit?! I hope that's not what you are saying.

In other sports, the players protect themselves and their teammates. In basketball, if one were to push Kobe Bryant, Gary Payton would then push and nearly bite the offending player.

In football if one were to rough up the quarterback, the Oline would retaliate.

In pick-up games of basketball, you foul someone hard, you know that the next time they get the opportunity, it's going to hurt.

In hockey, the enforcer starts a fight to protect the stars from cheap shots.

And these players get reputations. It's known who the enforcers are in hockey. Ball players talk about how 'dirty' Karl Malone is.

It's a form of self regulation when the refs don't step up to the plate. Now, obviously the refs should step up and penalize the offending player, but they don't see everything. Every fencer should learn how to deal with the hard hits and how to protect oneself.

[achilleus]

One more comment and then I'll leave it to everyone else.

It may be that there are differences in the way the sport is viewed in your club versus mine, or your country versus mine... It may be that we have a lot of young fencers that are better than most adults... or that I help run a club and am trying to develop it so we can attract new fencers... maybe because our club is very new and we are a bit idealistic regarding sportmanship. I'm really not sure, but the opinion is strongly grounded in our club.

Here's what I expect would happen. If the fencer wasn't carded after the scenario I described, I would talk to them as tournament director. That would address the problem in most cases. If they ignor the request, they would be ejected and invited not to return. The result is 100 fencers who can enjoy a day of high level fencing safely, and one disgrutled jerk who won't.

The approach you describe is a generation or two old. It's sounds like the approach that tolerates the class bully because "that's how kids are". You can't fix a problem by ignoring it.

I tried to be pretty specific regarding the circumstances and assume you understood them. The description given about the older fencer, however, makes me a little unsure of that. It sounds like you were saying the he was a fencer who was very aggressive, which is fine with me... that he hit your mask with his bellguard ONCE (and apologized), which I know happens and is understandable... and that he didn't do it again. Are you saying that the fact that you hit him hard in the chest was the reason he didn't do it, and that I should teach our fencers to use a brutal hit to stop a brutal hit?! I hope that's not what you are saying.

I'm am saying that my retaliation stopped him from treating me that way. That's exactly what happened. He still used these methods against others, just not me.

After all, it's the job of the ref to apply the rules and penalties. It's the job of the organizer to organize events. It's the job of an individual's coach to instruct and coach the student.

As I stated, the ref should apply the appropiate card(s), however since refs don't always see actions, or since a ref's judgement call may not always agree on the brutality level, fencers need to learn to protect themselves.

As for being a generation or two old, I see it in every pro sport I watch. I see it on the playground basketball games. I see it when I watch my nephew play high school basketball. I see it in fencing among the young competitors, and the old competitors.

So, I'm not sure it's as old or out of date as you think.

[rivers]

Thank you everyone for opening my eyes to my own brutality. When I first started to fence, many years ago in college, I remember other fencers who refused to fence with me. They said I hit too hard. I wasn't trying to hit anyone hard, I just wanted to be fast. What I didn't realize that my speed was translating into unintentional power. I remember others trying to get me to lighten up but to me that meant slowing down and letting the other guy have the advantage. The thought of slowing down was too unbearable because speed was the only edge I had over the more experience fencers.
One fencer said I moved so fast that it was very difficut to respond to my attack. I loved to hear that. It inflated my ego to the point that I would go home and practice to gain even more speed with little care or interest in technique. What did I need technique for if I could move like flash and touch my opponent before he could respond to it. Little did I know, at the time, how I was offending or hurting the others in the club. I wish I could go back now and undue what I did because I never wanted to hurt anyone. I just want to show off my speed, win and make everyone proud of me. I did show off my speed. I did win, but I don't think anyone was proud of me. I was nothing more than a one dimensional combatant not a fencer. Thank you everyone for showing me the other side of the coin.

[D'Artag-NOT]

Wow. What a thoughtful, and thought-provoking, post. Kudos.

[achilleus]

Thank you everyone for opening my eyes to my own brutality. When I first started to fence, many years ago in college, I remember other fencers who refused to fence with me. They said I hit too hard. I wasn't trying to hit anyone hard, I just wanted to be fast. What I didn't realize that my speed was translating into unintentional power. I remember others trying to get me to lighten up but to me that meant slowing down and letting the other guy have the advantage. The thought of slowing down was too unbearable because speed was the only edge I had over the more experience fencers.
One fencer said I moved so fast that it was very difficut to respond to my attack. I loved to hear that. It inflated my ego to the point that I would go home and practice to gain even more speed with little care or interest in technique. What did I need technique for if I could move like flash and touch my opponent before he could respond to it. Little did I know, at the time, how I was offending or hurting the others in the club. I wish I could go back now and undue what I did because I never wanted to hurt anyone. I just want to show off my speed, win and make everyone proud of me. I did show off my speed. I did win, but I don't think anyone was proud of me. I was nothing more than a one dimensional combatant not a fencer. Thank you everyone for showing me the other side of the coin.

mid 90's there was this guy at my club who fenced in a very similar fashion. Quick, explosive, and hard hitting. He was also tall and strong, and no one liked to fence him much.

His coach tried to improve him, but rarely got through. About a year into his career, he sits down with his coach one and says, 'Coach, everyone's hitting me real hard tonight. I'm getting really beat up today. I'm winning some bouts, but man, it hurts.'

His coach says, 'funny, that's what everyone says about you.' Then walked off.

He got the message, and improved from that day forward.

[Larrison]

I'll add a story here from my club fencing days XXX years past.

I was at a different club on a visit (looking for a closer place to fence), and was bouting with a guy who's technique wasn't great, but I thought might be interesting.

As I had been trained, in non-electric fencing when I was touched during a bout I would back off, and tap my chest, indicating I had received a touch. Eg, he had scored on me. We bouted for a few minutes, with his actions getting more and wilder until he stopped threw his mask down on the strip and started yelling at me.

Turns out, he thought that I was indicating that I had scored on him each time -- not that he had scored on me. He was ready to start swinging on me. I pointed this out to him, apologized for not be clearer on this (although I remember saying "touch on me" when I did that), and backed away.

I would *never* fence him again -- first of all, for losing his temper, secondly for being an a$$ about it, and thirdly for not bothering to figure out what was going on.

[HotShot]

Hey rivers, dont worry about hurting anyone because now you are so old by the time that you respond the other fencers will be on a coffee break. lol
Hi everyone i'm rivers son.

[D'Artag-NOT]

mid 90's there was this guy at my club who fenced in a very similar fashion. Quick, explosive, and hard hitting. He was also tall and strong, and no one liked to fence him much.

His coach tried to improve him, but rarely got through. About a year into his career, he sits down with his coach one and says, 'Coach, everyone's hitting me real hard tonight. I'm getting really beat up today. I'm winning some bouts, but man, it hurts.'

His coach says, 'funny, that's what everyone says about you.' Then walked off.

He got the message, and improved from that day forward.

This is an interesting departure from the "So it hurts, that's the game, suck it up!" approach that I've seen in discussions of roughness in fencing. A reaffirmation that skill and technique, not brute strength, are what really count.

[achilleus]

This is an interesting departure from the "So it hurts, that's the game, suck it up!" approach that I've seen in discussions of roughness in fencing. A reaffirmation that skill and technique, not brute strength, are what really count.

I'm not sure how you mean.

Here's how I look at it.

We can all agree that skill and technique are very important to fencing. However, physical advantages such as speed and strength are also very useful, and often discounted in fencing.

Roughing up an opponent is a different story.

As for sucking it up, that's not what I advocated, but the fencers reacted much as I would. They didn't say a word, but let their actions speak for themselves. And the fencer, who was none too bright finally got the clue.

Much like in my personal story the fencer who tried to rough me up. I fought back, and he realized, he couldn't behave that way.

[Louweasel]

Hey rivers, dont worry about hurting anyone because now you are so old by the time that you respond the other fencers will be on a coffee break. lol
Hi everyone i'm rivers son.

How sharper than a serpents tooth, etc....

[xCsiszarx]

I've always been of the opinion that I will fence anyone who doesn't hurt me.

I for one applaud you for actually saying what I believe is the bottom line. While I understand not wanting to be hurt or to have welts, the fact is (that to a degree) heavy handedness is part of the game. Consider for a minute that you may be letting a brutish or simply heavy handed fencer get a mental edge on you. I look for bouts with this type of fencer because I blame myself for being hit by the clod. It is an opportunity to master my defense. In the end I think you have to grab yourself by the bootstraps and say "Hey, come on, self! Quit being a wuss and toughen up!" Obviously, there is the rare occasion when someone so rediculous that they could cause hearing loss, but overall people, understandably, don't want welts. It has long been my opinion (and I am not implicating you in any way of any of my generalized opinions) that most of the fencing community has a pretty low threshhold for pain considering the orgins of the sport.

Originally Posted by achilleus

I'm not sure how you mean.

Here's how I look at it.

We can all agree that skill and technique are very important to fencing. However, physical advantages such as speed and strength are also very useful, and often discounted in fencing.

Roughing up an opponent is a different story.

As for sucking it up, that's not what I advocated, but the fencers reacted much as I would. They didn't say a word, but let their actions speak for themselves. And the fencer, who was none too bright finally got the clue.

Much like in my personal story the fencer who tried to rough me up. I fought back, and he realized, he couldn't behave that way.

Too right! Well said! We are of like mind.

[kalivor]

This is an interesting departure from the "So it hurts, that's the game, suck it up!" approach that I've seen in discussions of roughness in fencing. A reaffirmation that skill and technique, not brute strength, are what really count.

It's never "suck it up," as far as I can tell. It's "deal with it." How you deal with depends on your relationship with the brutal fencer: Clubmate, coach or opponent. Unfortunately it *is* in the game, and if you don't deal with it, it's losses all around -- both for you and the brutal fencer who doesn't improve their technique beyond the brutality.