Counter Attacking Retards

[ReverseLunge]

There are some foil fencers at my club who have fecning for years and years but they are not able to get past the counter attack phase. It drives me nuts! I lunge, they lunge. I beat and go, they extend. I parry-riposte, they remise. When in doubt they counter attack. It's just so annoying (and painful) to fence people who always counter. You can tell me to just not fence these people but then again they are very nice people, it's just they can't get out of that retarded counter attack mode. I talk to them about it all the time and it doesn't help. Any suggestions as how I can help these retards?

[The Outsider]

Give them an epee

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by The Outsider

Give them an epee

Some of them do epee and their epee is crap too. Eventhough there is no ROW in epee, the epeeist who knows how and when to parry-riposte and how and when to bind has a tremendous advantage over the pure counter attacker.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

There are some foil fencers at my club who have fecning for years and years but they are not able to get past the counter attack phase. It drives me nuts! I lunge, they lunge. I beat and go, they extend. I parry-riposte, they remise. When in doubt they counter attack. It's just so annoying (and painful) to fence people who always counter. You can tell me to just not fence these people but then again they are very nice people, it's just they can't get out of that retarded counter attack mode. I talk to them about it all the time and it doesn't help. Any suggestions as how I can help these retards?

Just because they are nice doesn't mean you have to fence them. You can be the nice guy off the strip, but practice time is time you to practice.

If they don't improve, then they aren't learning anything from fencing you. It's clear you aren't learning anything from them. Why waste yours and their time?

If they want help learning, direct them to a coach, or do drills with them. But just fencing them and talking to them won't get it done.

[The0ne]

ummm. . . THey obviously aren't learning anything, so don't fence them all the time. Try and fence people better than you all the time. And they're not exactly retards for counter-attack a lot. . . They're just doing it at the wrong times it seems.

[Aeric]

Tell them to do distance drills. Keep the same distance while you lead the movement. When you advance, they retreat, and visa versa. When you lunge, they should quickly retreat twice.

Check the distance at times with an extension of the blade. Then after this drill, add a parry-riposte (with retreat) for the defender when you lunge.

[cfaustus]

Fencing, as a martial art has a solution for the chronic counterattacker. It is called the False attack or Multiple intention attack. You can actually practice these just as one practices compound attacks (one-two's, double's etc.) A simple second intention usually can defeat the "counter attack retards' if they truly have not developed their fencing beyond the vindictive and juvenile "You kill me but I am taking you with me" mentality. As for switching to epee instead... nonsense! Much of the game of Olympic Epee is predicated on double hits... so there are still a TON of counter attackers out there... and how do you deal with them? The False attack...

Now if you ever come across someone who is counter attacking with purpose.. you might have a tad more trouble... so use multiple intentions... but you will have to develop your sense of counter-time... and that can not be taught... But you can learn body evasions... which are also great against the fleche I might add...

Ultimately, the plague of indiscriminate counter attacks is the symptom of a deeper illness: lack of respect of Right of Way.

Foil was traditionally a training weapon and as such many of its rules and restrictions were intended to help one train for the duel. The spirit of right of way basically is "hit without being hit". While it is true that Epee does not have a 'rule' of right of way, the principle still exists and is enforced by the double hit rule... If I attack you and don't defend against your counter, or if I counter attack onto your attack without displacing your attack, we both die or are at least wounded. Remember, the epee was a dueling sword... not just a practice weapon....

[Epee_Pox]

You can help them best by simply scoring on them whenever they do it. Eventually, they'll figure out it's not working, and try something else. Just think of their counters as weak parries, and do the necessary to land your point.

[fluidfencer]

Stuff like this happens without coaching. They can be helped by your coach, or by someone like you taking some time to explain why it's a problem.

Seems like there is a philosophical issue involved. Someone said we should only fence people better than you (was is The One?). My goal is to lift up the level of fencing in the club as well. Fence the better fencers, but take time so that the newer fencer can fence someone better (you) as well.

Question: Doesn't your coach spend time with the class and provide instruction, or was that just during free fencing? We restructured our whole program so that the coaches (we have 2) wouldn't be giving lessons during class time.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Fencing, as a martial art has a solution for the chronic counterattacker. It is called the False attack or Multiple intention attack. You can actually parctice these just as one practices compound attacks (one-two's, double's etc.)

I don't see the point in that for foil. They will just counter into my feint.

Originally Posted by Aeric

Tell them to do distance drills. Keep the same distance while you lead the movement. When you advance, they retreat, and visa versa. When you lunge, they should quickly retreat twice.

Check the distance at times with an extension of the blade. Then after this drill, add a parry-riposte (with retreat) for the defender when you lunge.

Most of these people are being coached. They know that what they are doing is wrong but they just can't help their reactions.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

You can help them best by simply scoring on them whenever they do it. Eventually, they'll figure out it's not working, and try something else. Just think of their counters as weak parries, and do the necessary to land your point.

Thats not working at all and it's no fun. There is a guy at the club who has been fencing on a regular basis for around 20 years now and he still can't get past the counter attack phase. I just don't get it. The guy is extremely intelligent and well educated off the strip.

Originally Posted by fluidfencer

Stuff like this happens without coaching. They can be helped by your coach, or by someone like you taking some time to explain why it's a problem.

Question: Doesn't your coach spend time with the class and provide instruction, or was that just during free fencing? We restructured our whole program so that the coaches (we have 2) wouldn't be giving lessons during class time.

I waste so much fenicng time helping folks with their counter attack promlem. I've tried many things. "Just think of it as tennis. It's my serve!" Nothing seems to work.

As for our coach. He is is doing a good job coaching. It's the people who don't seem to be learning.

[MyraTrue]

I recently was told by Derek Cotton that there are three kinds of fencers. We all sat around boggling our brains for what kind they might be. But I have to laugh and think he's absolutely right when he said:

There are attackers, defenders, and counter-attackers.

I'm the third. In ALL weapons. I just happen to fence epee because I'm best suited to it, or it is best suited to me. And I enjoy it. After all, what other weapon can you hit someone in the little toe, and laugh, thinking "and I get a POINT for that!!!"

[esskreemr]

You could get a chest protector for practice. You're probably not going to be able to help them much.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by MyraTrue

I recently was told by Derek Cotton that there are three kinds of fencers. We all sat around boggling our brains for what kind they might be. But I have to laugh and think he's absolutely right when he said:

There are attackers, defenders, and counter-attackers.

I'm the third. In ALL weapons. I just happen to fence epee because I'm best suited to it, or it is best suited to me. And I enjoy it. After all, what other weapon can you hit someone in the little toe, and laugh, thinking "and I get a POINT for that!!!"

Well you are doing the right thing since you are doing epee but I'm talking about foil. In foil, you dont counter unless you are 100% sure that your opponent won't hit or else its just giving him the point. But I'm sure you know that.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

You could get a chest protector for practice. You're probably not going to be able to help them much.

What I think i might do is make it so when I attack and they counter I get 2 points. Or perhaps when they counter into my attack they get no points even if I don't finish. Whatever it takes to break them out of this mode. I doubt its gonna help.

I remember years ago when I had a problem with covering target. Nothing I did helped. I even tied my hand behind my back during practice. In the end I just had to will myself not to cover target.

[esskreemr]

There are (were) a couple of people in our club who insisted on counter-attacking continuously. Thing is, they would complain afterward that they hit first. Drove me insane and I refused to fence them unless I needed practice against counter-attackers...

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Fencing, as a martial art has a solution for the chronic counterattacker. It is called the False attack or Multiple intention attack. You can actually parctice these just as one practices compound attacks (one-two's, double's etc.)

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I don't see the point in that for foil. They will just counter into my feint.

A feint is NOT part of a False Attack. It is part of a compound attack. With a feint/compound attack, you are expecting a parry, (a defensive action) which you then evade and touch. With a False attack, You are actually trying to draw out your opponent's 'canned' OFFENSIVE response. This may be a parry riposte or a counter attack.

What you do is launch an attack which invites a counter attack and then counter-counter-attack. Example: Attack to high inside by wide degage from outside to inside (this action reveals the inviting inner line for their counter), they counter to your high inside, you knew they were going to do this so you perform a demi-volte in counter-time, with opposition, and they miss, you hit.

So, you see you actually perform two attacks, both of which you plan in advance:
The degage (attack 1 and the false attack)
The Counter attack by demi-volte (second intention attack)

If this were a compound attack using feints it would only be one attack broken into several fencing tempi. For example, feint by degage from high outside to high inside, evade the lateral parry by degage and complete the attack in the high outside... (the One-Two).

This is way advanced stuff so if you don't understand some of what I am writing here ask your coach or get a good book (Gaugler's Science of Fencing is about the most comprehensive out there). These are the sort of premeditated attacks which make fencing like chess. Really great fencers may at times use up to 4th intention attacks and beyond (depending upon their opponent). Makes your head spin, but makes sense on the piste.

[dunastor]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Any suggestions as how I can help these retards?

First: try to learn them otherwise, as is suggested.

Second: if they really really can't learn to do anything other then counterattack, don't fence with them, period. People who don't learn are a waste of time and energy on the people who do.

(I've actually never seen anybody who doesn't learn however...)

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

A feint is NOT part of a False Attack. It is part of a compound attack. With a feint/compound attack, you are expecting a parry, (a defensive action) which you then evade and touch. With a False attack, You are actually trying to draw out your oppoent's 'canned' OFFENSIVE response. This may be a parry riposte or a counter attack.

What you do is launch an attack which invites a counter attack and then counter-counter-attack. Example: Attack to high inside by wide degage from outside to inside (this action reveals the inviting inner line for their counter), they counter to your high inside, you knew they were going to do this so you perform a demi-volte in counter-time, with opposition, and they miss, you hit.

So, you see you actually perform two attacks, both of which you plan in advance:
The degage (attack 1 and the false attack)
The Counter attack by demi-volte (second intention attack)

If this were a compound attack using feints it would only be one attack broken into several fencing tempi. For example, feint by degage from high outside to high inside, evade the lateral parry by degage and complete the attack in the high outside... (the One-Two).

This is way advanced stuff so if you don't understand some of what I am writing here ask your coach or get a good book (Gaugler's Science of Fencing is about the most comprehensive out there). These are the sort of premeditated attacks which make fencing like chess. Really great fencers may at times use up to 4th intention attacks and beyond (depending upon their opponent). Makes your head spin, but makes sense on the piste.

I don't think you get it dude. I'm not having problems with scoring. I score everytime. Thats the problem. We are talking foil here not epee. Basically all i have to do is move forward and I get countered. No fun for me at all. Might as well just lunge into the wall all day long.

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I don't think you get it dude. I'm not having problems with scoring. I score everytime. Thats the problem. We are talking foil here not epee. Basically all i have to do is move forward and I get countered. No fun for me at all. Might as well just lunge into the wall all day long.

Ohhh... I see, these are really beginning fencers (even if they have been fencing for years, they are only novices if they have not yet developed the skill to parry-riposte rather than reflexively counter attack... they probably were allowed to start bouting too soon)... who have not yet had parry ripostes drilled into them.... It sounds like they are countering by reflex rather than by conscious decision... well, help them out by making them do parry riposte drills with you. Then practice your compound attacks with feints against them (Conventional Exercises). This will improve their parring skills/reflexes and sharpen your point control. Both of you will improve and in the end you will have better partners on the piste once they learn to trust their parries.

By the way, I am not talking about simply 'scoring' I am talking about 'fencing'.
The reason that being hit by the other guy hurts (and in the old days would kill you) is teh whole reason for our entire art! You don't like getting hit by their sloppy counter-attacks? Well, then fencer better! It is not simply about 'scoring' it is about not getting hit AT ALL! If you have proper control of your opponent and the attack then they will not hit you. Period... no matter what weapon you are using. If you use compound attacks or false attacks to hit (making the bout more challenging for you) you will teach the counter attackers that ooops! that doesn't work against a good fencer! They will figure it out and start trying something else - like a parry-riposte! And you will have gotten some very good practice at controlling their blade in counter-time... a skill that you can not really drill for and can not be taught (i.e. VERY VALUABLE).

[ReverseLunge]

Well I guess you can say they are novices eventhough they have fenced for years. but after so many years I think the more appropriate term would be retarded. Thats how retarded children are. Doing the same thing again and again because they can't help it. Some of them are even coaching the younger and intermediate fencers. Amazing.