Counter Attacking Retards

[capa]

I'm new to fencing. From what I understand, each 'round' comprises of the attacker and the defender - is that right?

However, putting formalities aside, fencing is a combat sport and fencers are 'swordsman'. So, irrespective of the rules, if you get hit by a counter attack, does that not infer that you are a poor fencer? I'm new to the sport, but, if my counter attacks were continually parried or blocked and as a consequence my oponent scored, then I would revise strategies.

This string has been very informative and I have learnt alot. However, even a 'layperson' knows that a poor fencer gets hit just like a poor kickboxer gets kicked in the head. In martial art we had bouts with an attacker and defender, however, to test our blocking skills and speed, the defender would sometimes counter attack at the most inconvenient of times. I know formalities are very important in a sport like fencing. But, being a black belt I can appreciate the art of fighting, of which, is always unpredictable. Counter attacks are fun if you are skillful enough to nullify them; they even make fighting more spontaneous and interesting.

My views are just those of a general fighter. I'm probably wrong with regards to fencing but i'm learning!

Also, is it necessary to use the word 'retard'? I would think fencing attracts the educated among us considering the theoretical and psychological composition of the sport.

[prototoast]

I'm new to fencing. From what I understand, each 'round' comprises of the attacker and the defender - is that right?

Those are a lot of misconceptions. The is no "attacker" and "defender" (with the small exception of when they had a coin toss for sabre priority). (following applies to foil and sabre--right of way weapons) Both fencers start out with equal right to a touch, and it will remain that way until their collective actions place one person as the attacker and one as the defender. There are countless nuances to assigning right of way, but it basically boils down to which fencer has "threatened" his opponent first. There are basic ideas such as if you attack someone and you are parried (blocked), you are now obligated to be on the defensive because your attack has failed. The other person has "right of way" and becomes the "attacker"

Now, while one light touches are always ideal (and clearest for a director to see), they are not always possible, and certainly not necessary. If I am attacking an opponent and he begins to counterattack without right of way, I could parry his counterattack, but if my parry fails, it is his touch. If I attack and I see him counterattack, I should just finish my attack because it has priority. When we both hit together, it will be my touch. Right of way is there to protect against counterattacks, and so it is not worth the risk of losing right of way and being touched just to insure 1 light.

Epee on the other hand is all about hitting first, and so there is more of an effort to prevent being hit together but still, if you're attacking and you know your opponent cannot land a counterattack within 1/25 of a second, there is no reason to try to prevent him from hitting you if you get the touch.

Hope that helps clear things up.

Remember, modern fencing has almost nothing in common with real sword combart. Fencing is a just a sport.

[capa]

Thanks protoast,

So the fencer dominating the 'flow' of the bout has 'right of way'. An attack by the dominated fencer is then deemed a counter attack and upon the occurance of a 'double hit' then prefence will be given to the dominating/controlling fencer. So this is to preseve the sport as skill based on not merely 'lucky shot' childs play.

Your post was very helpful.

[prototoast]

Thanks protoast,

So the fencer dominating the 'flow' of the bout has 'right of way'. An attack by the dominated fencer is then deemed a counter attack and upon the occurance of a 'double hit' then prefence will be given to the dominating/controlling fencer. So this is to preseve the sport as skill based on not merely 'lucky shot' childs play.

Your post was very helpful.

Right of way can go back and forth between two fencers quite rapidly. For example, a possibly scenario between fencer A and fencer B (I'll put the fencer with right of way in parenthesis):

A moves forward and extends (A)
B retreats (A)
A searches for B's blade and fails (B)
B extends and lunges (B)
B's attack falls short and does not hit (A)
A comes forward but pulls arm backward (B)
B attacks (B)
A parries (A)
A reposts (A)--Touch A

Something like that can all happen in only a few seconds, so just remember that right of way is quite dynamic.

In other situations, at the start of a touch, two fencers could both advance lunge and both hit together and it would be simultaneous (No touch--or double touch in epeee), and neither fencer had established right of way... so if two lights go off, a touch is only awarded if one fencer had right of way (again, only applicable in foil and sabre).

[ReverseLunge]

The Redoubler - I TRY extremely hard not to lose the plot when I fence these people but it's just infuriating when you parry riposte (Good hit) and then like a FULL second later they pull their entire arm back and smash you right in the chest at close range... and since they're so close and not fencing properly it normally bends the other way ( Needless to say, it hurts like hell)

There was this one retard who couln't control his reactions at all. He would hit me in the back a full moment after I scored and turned around to go back to the line and he did it almost after every point. Every time he did it he would apologize profusely and then do it again and again. He was really making people mad. I'm glad he decieded to quit fencing.

[jBirch]

Thanks protoast,

So the fencer dominating the 'flow' of the bout has 'right of way'. An attack by the dominated fencer is then deemed a counter attack and upon the occurance of a 'double hit' then prefence will be given to the dominating/controlling fencer. So this is to preseve the sport as skill based on not merely 'lucky shot' childs play.

Your post was very helpful.

<sigh> I've seen fencers with YEARS of experience miss the point by a wider margin then you Capa. Talk about hitting the mark! How you found it so eloquently and perfectly with so little experience is beyond me. <grin>

Unless, of course, you're actually a reincarnated grandmaster. In which case: it makes perfect sense.

Simply put: right on.

[capa]

Thanks jBirch for your comments. I wan't sure if my idea of 'right of way' was correct, but you have confirmed that for me.

Fencing seems like a great technical sport. I am yet to begin but am already emersed in a heap of technical theory and strategy.

Thanks again for confirming the concept of 'right of way', of which, I was not entirely confident about. But now. I know what it is so thanks!

[capa]

Sorry I forgot to ask this question. So if a 'dominated' fencer strikes a 'dominating' attacker then that counter attack, upon touching the 'dominating' attacker, is a score for the 'dominating' attacker even though the 'dominated' fencer hit - is that right?

[prototoast]

Sorry I forgot to ask this question. So if a 'dominated' fencer strikes a 'dominating' attacker then that counter attack, upon touching the 'dominating' attacker, is a score for the 'dominating' attacker even though the 'dominated' fencer hit - is that right?

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but if fencer A has right of way and he attacks and fencer B counterattacks, if fencer A misses his attack and fencer B lands his attack, it is a touch for fencer B.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

I'm gonna go ahead and throw my 2 cents in agreeing with the opinion that the best thing for you to do is counter-time. You say they don't deserve the respect of you parrying their counter-attacks, but it really is the best option for several reasons:

1> It solves the problem of you dealing with them hitting you when it's clearly your touch. No more pain for you. It's still 'wrong' on their part, but there's nothing YOU can do to fix them if they're not willing to learn what's 'right.'

2> What if you run into a director who will give ROW to the fencer who hits first? Practiced one light actions can help bail you out of these horrible situations.

3> If you get so far into the habit of 'not giving your respect to counter-attacks' you may find yourself in a pickle when a good fencer throws fake-counters to draw your finish so that he can parry-riposte.

4> Lastly, because practicing this action requires more focus than simply finishing when they counter, and adds the skill to your repetoire. It makes it a better practice for you.

[Talyn]

[QUOTE=TooLoftheDeviL]I'm gonna go ahead and throw my 2 cents in agreeing with the opinion that the best thing for you to do is counter-time. You say they don't deserve the respect of you parrying their counter-attacks, but it really is the best option for several reasons:
QUOTE]


In many cases they don't actually counter attack until u're like a centimeter from them... so there really is no point even trying to parry them because that is just unrealistically stupid.

Anyway, I just refuse to fence morons now or i stick out a line and derobe then let them fall on my blade... if they think it's theres I just sigh and call for a president

[Grasshopper]

This sounds like a good time to practice the slow opposition attack: Anticipate which line the counter attack will come in and bind their blade DURING your attack. This will be a ONE LIGHT move and your counterattacking opponent won't even get the semi-retarded pleasure of seeing their shiney light come on.

Don't give him the Pavlovian reward of seeing his beeping light and he will stop salivating over time. (This may take about 100 trials, BTW.)

[MikeHarm]

In the sport, its psychologically possible to jump onto a blade thats coming at you and hit the guy because you know you won't get killed. With a real blade your survival instincts would block that from occurring. I saw a great demo of that on the Selberg Worshop video #3 from American Fencing Supply where he used a real sword to demonstrate right of way and this effect.

I'm new to fencing. From what I understand, each 'round' comprises of the attacker and the defender - is that right?

However, putting formalities aside, fencing is a combat sport and fencers are 'swordsman'. So, irrespective of the rules, if you get hit by a counter attack, does that not infer that you are a poor fencer? I'm new to the sport, but, if my counter attacks were continually parried or blocked and as a consequence my oponent scored, then I would revise strategies.

This string has been very informative and I have learnt alot. However, even a 'layperson' knows that a poor fencer gets hit just like a poor kickboxer gets kicked in the head. In martial art we had bouts with an attacker and defender, however, to test our blocking skills and speed, the defender would sometimes counter attack at the most inconvenient of times. I know formalities are very important in a sport like fencing. But, being a black belt I can appreciate the art of fighting, of which, is always unpredictable. Counter attacks are fun if you are skillful enough to nullify them; they even make fighting more spontaneous and interesting.

My views are just those of a general fighter. I'm probably wrong with regards to fencing but i'm learning!

Also, is it necessary to use the word 'retard'? I would think fencing attracts the educated among us considering the theoretical and psychological composition of the sport.

[Grasshopper]

In the sport, its psychologically possible to jump onto a blade thats coming at you and hit the guy because you know you won't get killed. With a real blade your survival instincts would block that from occurring. I saw a great demo of that on the Selberg Worshop video #3 from American Fencing Supply where he used a real sword to demonstrate right of way and this effect.

Dude, the reason we train for years and years is to get away from instinctive reactions and make correct choices which "symbolically" prevent us from being killed. An opposition attack is one of the safest techniques in foil if done properly.

[Talyn]

Dude, the reason we train for years and years is to get away from instinctive reactions and make correct choices which "symbolically" prevent us from being killed. An opposition attack is one of the safest techniques in foil if done properly.

yes... but we;re talking about morons here... you hit them with opposition one second later they'll still redouble into your head, arm or godforbid your groin...

There is little u can do with people like that... *sigh* I hate crappy arrogant school fencers

[jBirch]

Sorry I forgot to ask this question. So if a 'dominated' fencer strikes a 'dominating' attacker then that counter attack, upon touching the 'dominating' attacker, is a score for the 'dominating' attacker even though the 'dominated' fencer hit - is that right?

Nope. For clarity, every time you think "dominated" fencer, say instead "the fencer without right of way". Same for the "dominating" fencer.

If a counter-attack (an attack by the dominated fencer, the fencer without ROW) hits and the attack (the attack by the dominating fencer, the fencer with ROW) is non-existant, then it is a one light action and the point goes to the dominated fencer (the fencer without ROW). It's not like volleyball, where you need to have the serve to get a point. Rather, it is a system of priority. One light almost always has priority over no-lights. When you have two lights, it becomes more technical.

Think about it as if you had real sharps. If I hit you and you don't do anything, who wins? Even if you're running me back and totally dominating the fight, who wins?

If the attack hits and the counter-attack hits, the point goes to the attack and not the counter-attack. The attack has a higher priority then the counter-attack and so wins. If ONLY the counter-attack hits, then it is highest in the priority "stack" and gets the point.

If you want to know more about this (it's pretty complicated), start a new thread and ask some questions, since we're kinda off target here. Your initial post though hit straight to the heart of the matter in terms of explaining the priority stack to a neophyte.

Take it easy.

[michaelheggen]

In the sport, its psychologically possible to jump onto a blade thats coming at you and hit the guy because you know you won't get killed. With a real blade your survival instincts would block that from occurring. I saw a great demo of that on the Selberg Worshop video #3 from American Fencing Supply where he used a real sword to demonstrate right of way and this effect.

Having personally experienced this demonstration with Maestro Charles Selberg recently, I can definitely attest to its effectiveness.

Right of way takes on a whole new meaning when you are staring, fascinated, at a needle-sharp epee that the hand of a 73-year-old maestro has pointed at your chest. You sense an almost palpable line out in front of you where the transition is made from "guy standing in front of me with a sharp pointy thing" to "yep, that's definitely a threat, and if I don't deal with that point, I'm going to be dead in a heartbe... (thud) ".

If some of the original poster's clubmates are determined to blindly and instinctively counterattack in hope of getting just one light, perhaps they should engage in more appropriate twitchy recereational endeavor, like playing video games on their X-box -- or drag racing.

On the other hand, they might be salvageable with a proper understanding of right of way. I have been able, with time and patience, cure my problem students of chronic counterattacks.

If Selberg's method doesn't fit your style, you might simply try having the problem fencers fence in an ongoing series of visually-judged bouts with a director who has a rock-solid understanding of the difference between a counterattack and an attack into preparation. That has worked well for us.

[oiuyt]

It's not like volleyball, where you need to have the serve to get a point.

Neither is volleyball, they switched to rally scoring years ago. :)

-B :)

[dreadfoily]

There are some foil fencers at my club who have fecning for years and years but they are not able to get past the counter attack phase. It drives me nuts! I lunge, they lunge. I beat and go, they extend. I parry-riposte, they remise. When in doubt they counter attack. It's just so annoying (and painful) to fence people who always counter. You can tell me to just not fence these people but then again they are very nice people, it's just they can't get out of that retarded counter attack mode. I talk to them about it all the time and it doesn't help. Any suggestions as how I can help these retards?

I assume you're talking about foil or sabre? they sound like me when I first started fencing, they're going for the tempo - or stop thrust, it's a natural reaction, based on the instinct to survive, so I second the Epee suggestion. It's natural for them.

[ReverseLunge]

Well my foil fencing has gotten worse because of these retards. I no longer do second intention or marching attacks. All I do is straight simple attacks and take my opponents blade in the chest as I score. The second closest club is around 2 hours away.

Been fencing mostly epee lately.