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Another way to help these fencers is to beat them consistently and easily. Do simple direct attacks, and ignore the counter-attacks, and get your touches. Don't fool with the blade, just go direct and get your touches. Even the least accomplished opponent will soon realize that the entire bout is consisting of you reaching out and hitting them... it won't feel right. They will wrack their brains for a solution; they may even think of defending themselves. (No growth without resistance. -- Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.)
The problem might be that you're engaging your opponents' imaginations at a too-high level. When there's bladework, or compound attacks, or anything except straight hits, they can fool themselves into thinking they're in a fight. If you're doing walk-up hits then all the illusion is gone. Sure, they'll turn lights on, but they won't be getting touches.
Another thing might be the bouting structure. If you're not already doing it, designate one of the strips as "winner stays up" so that people will fight their hardest to not get knocked out after waiting so long in line. King of the hill = tough love school of learning.
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 Originally Posted by ReverseLunge Well I guess you can say they are novices eventhough they have fenced for years. but after so many years I think the more appropriate term would be retarded. Thats how retarded children are. Doing the same thing again and again because they can't help it. Some of them are even coaching the younger and intermediate fencers. Amazing. Actually, that is the state of modern fencing. Which is why so many people never learn Conventional exercises and never learn the beautifully complex swordplay of each weapon. It is also why the sport of fencing isn't fun for most people to watch - It doesn't look like swordplay any more because people are not fencing rationally... they just want to light up the little light. Those people in your club have no business teaching others. In our group they would not be bouting themselves. They would be revoked of bouting priviledges and made to do Conventional Exercises for 6 months. Then, one could see if they were ready to fence using reason instead of reflex. But most people don't have the patience or dedication for that. They probably are the same people who gave up on piano when they found out that they would actually have to practice every day. "Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un músico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga
"If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes."
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Originally Posted by wflaschka Another way to help these fencers is to beat them consistently and easily. Do simple direct attacks, and ignore the counter-attacks, and get your touches. Don't fool with the blade, just go direct and get your touches. Even the least accomplished opponent will soon realize that the entire bout is consisting of you reaching out and hitting them... it won't feel right. They will wrack their brains for a solution; they may even think of defending themselves. (No growth without resistance. -- Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.)
The problem might be that you're engaging your opponents' imaginations at a too-high level. When there's bladework, or compound attacks, or anything except straight hits, they can fool themselves into thinking they're in a fight. If you're doing walk-up hits then all the illusion is gone. Sure, they'll turn lights on, but they won't be getting touches.
Another thing might be the bouting structure. If you're not already doing it, designate one of the strips as "winner stays up" so that people will fight their hardest to not get knocked out after waiting so long in line. King of the hill = tough love school of learning.
I think that what he is experiencing is counter attackers who counter EVERYTHING and as such, he is sick of getting hit, even though he 'scores'. He is winning, but he is taking a bruising doing it. I totally agree with your though that if you can show them that what they are doing does not work, they will figure out something else to do... but maybe they have never been shown the right thing? Maybe it is time for some remedial lessons?
Winner stays up is also good, but teaching of basic techniques like parry-ripostes should not be done in an assault... they should be practiced at the beginning of class before one starts to bout. "Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un músico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga
"If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes."
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do they win often by counterattacking?!
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Originally Posted by wflaschka Another way to help these fencers is to beat them consistently and easily. Do simple direct attacks, and ignore the counter-attacks, and get your touches. Don't fool with the blade, just go direct and get your touches. Even the least accomplished opponent will soon realize that the entire bout is consisting of you reaching out and hitting them... it won't feel right. They will wrack their brains for a solution; they may even think of defending themselves. (No growth without resistance. -- Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.) Agreed
If they counter attack every time then you should be able to prevent them from even comming close to hitting you. To a beat as they counter to knock their attack of target or try enveloping their blade as you attack. Bait them into counter attacking and then parry-riposte their counter to show them how it is done right. You must show them the error of their ways. It sounds like explaining it to them wouldn't get the point across. Fleche!! Fleche for fantasy.
"Dude! Zombie Keith Moon would be an unstoppable force!!
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Also- second intention- make a false attack- to draw out the counter- then a parry repost- from whatever parry you wanna practice, and to whatever angle you wanna practice hitting.
-----------------!!!!Doh!!!!!- I didn't look at the preceding post. If a little dreaming is dangerous, the cure for it is not to dream less but to dream more, to dream all the time~Proust
~The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.
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Just do counter time.
Step forward with an invitation, or even start your attack, and then parry riposte. Make it really, really simple, so that they'll understand how easily their tactic can be beaten.
If you hit someone 15 times a row with 4- riposte, they'll stop doing what they're doing. If they don't, you shouldn't be bothering to fence them.
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Originally Posted by elberto I noted that nothing has been said about if their tactics actually work - ie do they win bouts of points?
What chance of hope have you or a coach of stopping someone countering if they win points with this tactic. Well it's like this; when the counter attack retards fence the counter attack retards they are usually confused as to whos touch it is. So what they usually do is throw it out. Sometimes they just kind of say nothing and just go back to the starting line, both of them thinking they got the touch but both also not quite sure. so in the end they come up with different scores. It's a whole different story when they fence the people who know how to fence. Usually the only point they get is when the other person's light doesnt go of.
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Originally Posted by angrylemur Just do counter time.
Step forward with an invitation, or even start your attack, and then parry riposte. Make it really, really simple, so that they'll understand how easily their tactic can be beaten.
If you hit someone 15 times a row with 4- riposte, they'll stop doing what they're doing. If they don't, you shouldn't be bothering to fence them. Bad idea. Why should I riposte if it's my attack? Doing that would only make them think they have ROW and they would do it even more.
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It's important because a lot of people make counter attacks- good fencers will make counterattacks (when they think you can make the other fencer miss)
So- practice as if they were a good fencer- make them think the time is good for the counter-attck- and blammo- parry repost. If a little dreaming is dangerous, the cure for it is not to dream less but to dream more, to dream all the time~Proust
~The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.
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Originally Posted by fencerontheline It's important because a lot of people make counter attacks- good fencers will make counterattacks (when they think you can make the other fencer miss)
So- practice as if they were a good fencer- make them think the time is good for the counter-attck- and blammo- parry repost. So you are telling me to practice countering? you mean like inquartata
or duck and chuck? I do that all the time with the better fencers. I think I am just gonna call it quits with the retards. thats right. Buy a chest guard and just use them as them as target for my lunge and marches.
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ReverseLunge,
The other option is to use them like a fencing dummy and practice stuff that you need to work on. If you're scoring all the time against these guys, try different, less trained, techniques. Try prime with opposition, or distance parries, or footwork mind games, or feint, demi-step, attack or infighting. Try just parrying. Try closing out your parries and letting them counter attack into space. Try lunging and holding your lunge while defeating a counter-attack.
You're looking at the situation as an opportunity to fence and win, like a competition. Remember that all bouting at the club level is about learning. In these guys you have a great opportunity to practice less instinctive, but no less effective counters to a relatively common practice. Unless you want to pay your coach for private lessons, where else are you going to get such a golden opportunity to practice counter-time techniques in the real world?
Just a thought.
Take it easy. If it's stupid, but it works, it's not stupid.
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lunge TOWARDS the pain Originally Posted by cfaustus I think that what he is experiencing is counter attackers who counter EVERYTHING and as such, he is sick of getting hit, even though he 'scores'. He is winning, but he is taking a bruising doing it. ...  I agree. I wanted to rhapsodize about throwing oneself into the lunge, and taking the counter attack on the sternum, and leaning into it, and eating the pain. But -- it's hard to communicate that mindset, and I'd sound like a loon. RL did finish by saying, "how can I help them" so I went for that.
But the eat-the-pain approach is not entirely weird. A long while ago, I was talking to an old fencer friend of mine. He's an epeeist, somewhat short, and he'd begun to "next level" his lessons with his coach at the NYAC, with lessons on tactics tailored to his build & skills. The new game is very precise timing, with quick closing of distance. Jumping into attacks. He took to wearing a breastplate after some bruised ribs. He's seen results from this new approach, and it appears to be a viable foundation for high-risk tactics.
I'd been thinking about that when the changes to box-timing for foil filtered down to us. So now, with my students, I've been building a metal-hand / feather-hand technique during lessons. It combines very strong direct actions to hit through the blade (e.g., fast binds, close-outs, coulés), and also deceptive actions like quick derobements with stop-hits. The premise for this is the notion is that it's hard to find the opponent's blade until the opponent commits, so how do you take over a committed attack.
The feather-hand stuff seems easier to pick up; it's very hard to find these students' blades at times, and they can tag marching opponents pretty easily. The metal-hand needs good timing and good fixed-wrist hand-form to work, so it may take longer.
For the metal-hand stuff, the lunges have to be very committed and decisive, and the actions basically ignore what the opponent is doing with their blade. I've used this stuff in bouting, and though the goal is to hit ahead of the opponent, it translates well with the current box timing because the actions are typically one-light.
Originally Posted by Elemental ... To a beat as they counter to knock their attack of target or try enveloping their blade as you attack. ... So what I'm getting around to is what Elemental pointed out already. These particular "metal-hand" actions appear to be high-risk -- the opponent is lunging so lunge into them, or, the opponent is taking your blade so let them take it and then ride it home to their target -- but they're not high-risk. They merely have a low tolerance for errors. Their nature, on delivery of the attack, is very athletic and powerful; and inside the mind of the attacker there's a sense of wild abandon once the action has commenced. Sure, it's just a bunch of envelopments and close-outs. But mentally, it's a blast of energy that trivializes anything the opponent can do.
So I was going to advise "eat the pain," because with enough practice and 'wild abandon' the pain will stop happening. The actions will be one light. It's hard for me to convey, but if you embrace the pain and lean into it, it becomes vanishingly unimportant. (Unless it really stings.) Like, how you put out an oil well fire with a big blast of dynamite.
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My advice is do a false attack drawing the counterattack, parry the counterattack then riposte for a one light action. Not only will you have the point but they can't even try to delude themselves that it was their attack or anything worked since they never hit you at all.
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Originally Posted by MikeHarm My advice is do a false attack drawing the counterattack, parry the counterattack then riposte for a one light action. Not only will you have the point but they can't even try to delude themselves that it was their attack or anything worked since they never hit you at all. The only time I do that is when I'm up against a guy who I think can parry my attack. The C.A.R.s (Counter Attack Retards) don't deserve this kind of respect since they will mindlessly explode into any oncoming movement regardless. I'm gonna do as I said and buy a chest protector and use the C.A.R.s at my fencing targets. I noticed there are more females C.A.R.s than male C.A.R.s. May be it's because the female C.A.R.s are at a higher lever of retardation.
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It sounds as though these people are not really in fencing for competition, but rather "for fun". That is, they don't care enough about whether they win or lose to learn from getting a drubbing. They just think that fencing is about "poke the other guy". If that's the case there is nothing you can do to help them, because nothing you can do is going to motivate them to change their ways: what they are doing is sufficiently "fun" to them to reward them for their efforts as it is.
If there are enough other decent fencers to fence with, I think you may just have to eschew bouting with these people. If they ask why, explain to them that they're nice folks but you aren't gaining anything by beating them and it isn't "fun" for you to be bored to death by their one-note styles. ( That in itself may p*** them off enough to make them change, but then again maybe not. )
If there aren't enough other fencers to give you a decent practice without them, there are two things you might try. 1, do the same thing back to them. Refuse to attack, and when they do, counter, counter, counter into them. Exaggerate it. Show them what it looks and feels like to be on the receiving end. 2, as jBirch said, don't fence them as though it's a competitive bout. Just use them as practice dummies. Work on your parries, or distance, or footwork, or timing. Just don't feed their "this is fun" feedback loop...
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Well most of the guys and gals dont compete. What happened was they used to compete and finished at the bottom because of their counter attacking. I always tell them that if they are fast enough to counter and hit me before I hit them then that means they are fast enough to parry me too.
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Originally Posted by ReverseLunge There are some foil fencers at my club who have fecning for years and years but they are not able to get past the counter attack phase. It drives me nuts! I lunge, they lunge. I beat and go, they extend. I parry-riposte, they remise. When in doubt they counter attack. It's just so annoying (and painful) to fence people who always counter. You can tell me to just not fence these people but then again they are very nice people, it's just they can't get out of that retarded counter attack mode. I talk to them about it all the time and it doesn't help. Any suggestions as how I can help these retards? Second intention attacks. Sucker them in...after scoring enough touches, they'll start to get it.
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Originally Posted by Epee_Pox You can help them best by simply scoring on them whenever they do it. Eventually, they'll figure out it's not working, and try something else. Just think of their counters as weak parries, and do the necessary to land your point. Mmm I don't think so...some people do the same thing no matter what...even if it's wrong. I suggest drills. Drills are really the best way to get people to fix something they are doing wrong.
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Originally Posted by ReverseLunge Well most of the guys and gals dont compete. What happened was they used to compete and finished at the bottom because of their counter attacking. I always tell them that if they are fast enough to counter and hit me before I hit them then that means they are fast enough to parry me too. I know EXACTLY what you're talking about...
Some people just don't *get* right of way. I'm 100% serious about this... It happens a lot more in schools then it does at clubs but they're the same kind of people. I can name atleast 4 people of the top of my head who have been fencing for more than 3 years but still lose to other novices who've only been learning for a month... or in some cases, even less.
This is not to say that counter-attacking is bad however. I recently, found out how to beat a fencer by counter-attacking/attacking-in-prep really quickly then moving out of the way or pass him...(im saying ca/a-i-p because it's REALLY hard to see right of way because it's happening really quickly - but 95% of the time it's one light).
I've personally come across a few sub-sections of counter-attacking foilists:
The Epeeist - WHY O WHY these people do foil is completely unknown to me because they don't understand right of way. It would be different if they were doing it as a second weapon but it's their MAIN weapon which is kind of sad.
The Retard - As reverse lunge said, these guys are just plain retarded. I know it's a bit harsh, but anyone who has come across a REAL fencing idiot will know what I'm talking about. No real sense of right-of-way and just tries to get the tip on whenever they can
The Redoubler - I TRY extremely hard not to lose the plot when I fence these people but it's just infuriating when you parry riposte (Good hit) and then like a FULL second later they pull their entire arm back and smash you right in the chest at close range... and since they're so close and not fencing properly it normally bends the other way ( Needless to say, it hurts like hell)
Now I thinka bout it, most of the crap fencers I know seem to be a cross between a redoubler and a retard... this combination does some serious damage to your equipment. It's even worse when they are utterly convinced that they are masters of flicking after simply watching someone else flick; this normally results in a massive dent in your mask as they redouble into your head with their guard.
As for the whole fencing for fun point... well, they should ATLEAST have the courtesy to learn the basics so they don't hurt other people. If they don't respect the safety of other people then they should not be doing fencing, there are so many stories about getting tons of whips, bruises and cuts from fencers who just don't care about other people - "It really is of importance, not only what men do, but also what manner of men they are that do it. Among the works of man...the first importance surely is man himself."
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- sometimes I use then for a whole bout (especially if I want to make someone seem like an idiot or pick the hell out of their fencing - there is only one thing more insulting than a counter and that is being hit with a direct lunge - actually or a line with a derobement when you can see the guy smile after you lunge on his point .. )
) - let this be your gameplay and learn to enjoy fencing them and winning bouts ... If you can't just enjoy the fencing as best you can - counterattacking is a way of life and a pleasure in itself. 
