Expanding Summer Nationals and Manpower

[Inquartata]

We have to do the things you brought up NOW.

Pardon, but no, you don't "have" to. It is not mandatory. You need, I think, a 5-rated referee at Qualifiers, no? And apart from that no one forces anyone to get rated or to have rated referees. Your idea WOULD force them to do so, or else not let anyone go to Nationals. Or am I missing something?

[qatet]

Well, gee. Or we could, say, combine the making of referees with one of the really big events. You know, one where fencers and FOC testers both congregate as part of their normal yearly schedules. Hmmm... Would that be, say, Nationals? Where they already offer ref tests? I'm lucky and I was able to test in my home division, but there are plenty of opportunities to become a ref at Nationals. They offer the seminar and the written and practical tests. What might really make sense would be to have the seminar and at least the written available the day or two _before_ the events start. Then they could give practicals in the first couple days and have a whole new slew of refs. Even if the refs weren't great they could serve as hand judges and the other scrub jobs of officiating.

[fence1848]

I like the idea of having the seminar before the events begin, though that would probably add a bit of cost on for the tournament. But once the events begin, the referees will be busy every day from dawn till dusk (and sometimes later). It would be easier to concentrate on the seminar if there were not a time limit or other possible obligations arising because the tournament is going.

[Schiavona]

Well, gee. Or we could, say, combine the making of referees with one of the really big events. You know, one where fencers and FOC testers both congregate as part of their normal yearly schedules. Hmmm... Would that be, say, Nationals? Where they already offer ref tests? I'm lucky and I was able to test in my home division, but there are plenty of opportunities to become a ref at Nationals. They offer the seminar and the written and practical tests. What might really make sense would be to have the seminar and at least the written available the day or two _before_ the events start. Then they could give practicals in the first couple days and have a whole new slew of refs. Even if the refs weren't great they could serve as hand judges and the other scrub jobs of officiating.

Hmmmmm, I GUESS that would be ok if I were part of the 1%-2% of the people in my division going to Nationals this year. See? It dosen't work for ALL the fencers in ALL the divisions. Which is why I'm suggesting divisional referee training programs

[Schiavona]

Pardon, but no, you don't "have" to. It is not mandatory. You need, I think, a 5-rated referee at Qualifiers, no? And apart from that no one forces anyone to get rated or to have rated referees. Your idea WOULD force them to do so, or else not let anyone go to Nationals. Or am I missing something?

Have I caught Inquartata in a contradiction? We don't "have" to, but we "need" a 5-rated referee at divisional qualifiers?

The last time I was division chairman I did set up a divisional referee training program. We brought up a Foc rep for a clinic and tested at the Sectionals we hosted that year. In the five years since? Zip. Nada. I can set these programs up, but they fall apart when I'm not looking. That's why I wanted the USFA to require the divisions(or at least mine) to train referees.

And yet, I'm really not a socialist......

[qatet]

Hmmmmm, I GUESS that would be ok if I were part of the 1%-2% of the people in my division going to Nationals this year. See? It dosen't work for ALL the fencers in ALL the divisions. Which is why I'm suggesting divisional referee training programs

Correct, not everybody goes. But if we're still linking this to the quota idea (one ref for so many fencers at Nationals) then it works pretty well. Kinda like very broad-scale self-directing, but with _training_.

What I think would be even better would be if the USFA offered to pay hotel, air, stipend, etc (as they do for refs), if you were to attend this early seminar and take and pass the test. That way they'd get people with a strong incentive to study the rule book, pass the exam, and show up for the early day or two. And they'd get people who had probably worked on their reffing at home, in the high hopes of getting paid for.

[Schiavona]

Can't disagree with that! I'd love to have my travel paid in part or full

Just don't think it will happen.


Part of my fustration is this; as far as I understand it, the USFA has a program where they will send someone to conduct a clinic(the division or club kicks in $100) in fencing, coaching or refereeing. Sounds great. Only thing is the refereeing clinic is informational only as it's not conducted by a FOC training/testing officer. Why? My guess it's a jurisdictional thing. The FOC is not the USFA.

I still think that an organization(the USFA) should be able to require its sub-organizations(the divisions) to provide/produce people needed(the referees) for the running of one of its main functions(tournaments).

I'm sure that everyone agrees that trained referees are vital for the growth of fencing.

[Inquartata]

Well, gee. Or we could, say, combine the making of referees with one of the really big events. You know, one where fencers and FOC testers both congregate as part of their normal yearly schedules. Hmmm... Would that be, say, Nationals?

Still problematical. If you're fencing, say, the sabre events, how do you get observed for a referee rating? Can't very well ref an event you're in...

[Inquartata]

Have I caught Inquartata in a contradiction? We don't "have" to, but we "need" a 5-rated referee at divisional qualifiers?

Answer: no. ( And a gratuitous for you, oh Schia Pet! )

You don't need one from your Division. Any old 5 will do, he or she can be an import.

BTW, I have never really gotten the whole picture on that requirement. Does one just need a ref 5 AT Qualifiers? Does he or she have to referee the Qualifiers? Must he or she be a 5 in every event fenced, or is a 5 in epee good enough to legitimize Qualifiers in sabre and foil as well?

[Schiavona]

Answer: no. ( And a gratuitous for you, oh Schia Pet! )

You don't need one from your Division. Any old 5 will do, he or she can be an import.

BTW, I have never really gotten the whole picture on that requirement. Does one just need a ref 5 AT Qualifiers? Does he or she have to referee the Qualifiers? Must he or she be a 5 in every event fenced, or is a 5 in epee good enough to legitimize Qualifiers in sabre and foil as well?

Well, what about being unfair to divisions that have limited resources? Say we, Alaska division, had no rated refs. Importing one for Qualifiers is different than HAVING to bring up a FOC rep for testing referees? Both would be 'mandated' expenses from the USFA.

Before you point it out yes, we do have people who have a 5 rating. Four in epee, one in foil and 0 in sabre. Oops! Just checked Peet's FOC list, everyone got down graded as of 2004, all 6 now. Does that mean all our divisional qualifiers are void? Oh, my!

I'd also like to see your questions answered. Bill Oliver? Anyone?

[qatet]

Still problematical. If you're fencing, say, the sabre events, how do you get observed for a referee rating? Can't very well ref an event you're in...

But surely you're not fencing in every single sabre event, from Y-10 through 1-A! And frankly, somebody who's fencing in that many events wouldn't really have time to ref much.

[fluidfencer]

Do I see an answer starting to develop?

Do what is necessary to allow people to attend the seminar, take the test, and be observed for their practical... in one event. Couldn't that be done if we invite Bill Oliver for the weekend, have him give a seminar and administer the test, then on Sunday hold a tournament that could be used as a practical? It doesn't have to be a huge tournament to at least get a lower referee rating?

If a club were willing to do some training before hand to make the weekend go smoothly, or if they have a bunch of decent refs that just need to brush up on all the details contained in the rule book, wouldn't this approach produce a bunch of good rated referees at one time?

This sounds too easy. Am I being naive or missing something important?

[qatet]

Do I see an answer starting to develop?

Do what is necessary to allow people to attend the seminar, take the test, and be observed for their practical... in one event. Couldn't that be done if we invite Bill Oliver for the weekend, have him give a seminar and administer the test, then on Sunday hold a tournament that could be used as a practical? It doesn't have to be a huge tournament to at least get a lower referee rating?

If a club were willing to do some training before hand to make the weekend go smoothly, or if they have a bunch of decent refs that just need to brush up on all the details contained in the rule book, wouldn't this approach produce a bunch of good rated referees at one time?

This sounds too easy. Am I being naive or missing something important?

This is what the Philadelphia division does. Yes, we are in an area with a number of certified observers, but still, why not make it as easy as possible for everybody?