Hopping Footwork

[Victor]

Can you elaborate a bit more?

Could. Don't need to. And I'm not going to. Because you've reached the point where you're arguing now just to defend your ego. And I don't feel like playing that game just to make you feel better about your argument skills.

(Unclipping from the reel and looking over to the bench...)
"I'm done here. Next?"

[Inquartata]

Because I win more often when I bounce than when I don't.

OK, but then it's just an article of faith and it lends no credence to the usefulness of the technique generally.

It doesn't trump it. But it's different.

Yes. Does that really answer the question?

Yes it does provide relief, not neccessarily from more static footwork, but from more traditional footwork.

It works the muscles differently, and helps relax the body.

This is only done from out of distance.

Gotcha. I'll even buy that, at least as a subjective impression...

Depends what you consider an important bout. When I show at local events, and am in the pools, I don't really bounce. I don't really scream either.

At world cups however, I'm bouncing almost every bout, and hopefully screaming.

Do you do better at WCs than at local meets?

Also, the ones that bounce often, are in shape, and their last worry is getting tired. The older fencer's manage their energy much more efficiently than the younger ones out of necessity.

Agreed.

[Inquartata]

In epee, you act to create opportunity to react. Because you react to your opponent initiating the action you need to keep yourself accellerating away from the ground so you don't lose that ability if you blink at the wrong time. When you bounce, you don't lose any mobility because in the time it takes you to perceive the threat, the bounce has carried you in a favourable direction and you've already got the momentum to continue it. When moving up, you can retreat, when moving down, you can dig in and go forward. You can drop and stay on an upward spike, or raise your arm and go up on your tiptoes for a downward shot. But if you have to start your movement from resting, you've lost an opportunity (especially as the targets are fleeting and tiny).

Hope this helps.

Oddly enough, that makes a kind of sense...though I can't help feeling that there's a flaw in the logic that I'm not quite seeing...

How would you answer the traction issue?

[Inquartata]

If this is your technique, you might be better suited to SCA.

Indeed.

Although, it did work well enough to get me high enough in the placings to merit the E...

[achilleus]

Do you do better at WCs than at local meets?

Depends on what you mean by better. I win most local events I attend, however the quality of competition is nowhere near the level of NAC's or world cups.

I've done well at the NAC's and world cups, but since I haven't won one, or made a national team, not well enough.

As to the rest of your post, you don't believe bouncing works. That's fine.
It does. The elite know it, and practice it.

[jBirch]

Oddly enough, that makes a kind of sense...though I can't help feeling that there's a flaw in the logic that I'm not quite seeing...

How would you answer the traction issue?

What traction issue? Any problems of traction are already taken care of in the past: you're already moving.

[Inquartata]

Uh, only if you can predict the future. Once again, if the opponent attacks while you're on the up cycle, your traction is going to be less than when your whole weight is solidly on the ground. Simple physics. And unless you have managed to circumvent the minimum human reaction time, it takes you about 3/10 of a second at the least to react to a stimulus.

Anyway, in my continuing quest for understanding of this technique, I asked two A epeeists about it yesterday. One said that only the front foot bounces forward and back, unless there's a perceived need to increase or decrease distance---and then it only moves as in a normal advance or retreat, not in a constant oscillation. The other ( a non-bouncer, BTW, who was near the top of the US Div I point standings a couple of years ago ) said that not only has she never seen any utility in it but that contrary to several assertions here on the board "all" top epeeists do NOT bounce. She named Seth Kelsey specifically as someone who doesn't, and said that generally the Germans and Italians don't; that it's a coach-specific thing...

So it seems there's a bit of selective perception going on: bounce-advocates think everyone worth a sou does it, those who don't do it themselves believe that there are lots like them. And sometimes they are citing the same people!

[Inquartata]

Could. Don't need to. And I'm not going to. Because you've reached the point where you're arguing now just to defend your ego.

What a convenient way to dodge the issue! "I know because I know, and I don't need to offer any argument because, because, well, you aren't worth the time of such a superior creature as I!"

(Unclipping from the reel and looking over to the bench...)
"I'm done here. Next?"

Brother.

[jBirch]

Uh, only if you can predict the future. Once again, if the opponent attacks while you're on the up cycle, your traction is going to be less than when your whole weight is solidly on the ground. Simple physics. And unless you have managed to circumvent the minimum human reaction time, it takes you about 3/10 of a second at the least to react to a stimulus.

Inq,

The 3/10th of a second reaction is precisely the problem that bouncing helps solve. Try it at your home club. Stay steady and get a fencing partner to extend and hit you from en garde at extension distance. Try the same exercise while bouncing and tell me the results.

[Schiavona]

If this is your technique, you might be better suited to SCA.

Using the guard as a 'shield' is a valid epee technique and is quite useful in transitioning foilists to epee. Just 'cause your Kung Fu dosen't teach this doesn't mean it's wrong, young Grasshopper.

[Schiavona]

As I say, bouncing seems to be an epee phenomenon, and I don't fence epee, so I am indifferent as to whether it works or not. But I am a firm believer in empirical bases for methods, and an inveterate asker of "Why?" Sorry if that makes me Martin Luther or something...

Are you starting a Reformation?

I remember first seeing bouncing in foil.........long ago and far away. Then I started seeing it in epee. It was explained to me as coming from the Russians and if the RUSSIANS were doing it, well! Also, I had it explained as a body physics thing, 'bodies in rest, yada yada yada'. Tried it, didn't like it. So what? It does make hitting some epee targets harder. My original fencing teacher once told me that, "Fencing is a house with many rooms." I try to rember this.

[achilleus]

Uh, only if you can predict the future. Once again, if the opponent attacks while you're on the up cycle, your traction is going to be less than when your whole weight is solidly on the ground. Simple physics. And unless you have managed to circumvent the minimum human reaction time, it takes you about 3/10 of a second at the least to react to a stimulus.

Anyway, in my continuing quest for understanding of this technique, I asked two A epeeists about it yesterday. One said that only the front foot bounces forward and back, unless there's a perceived need to increase or decrease distance---and then it only moves as in a normal advance or retreat, not in a constant oscillation. The other ( a non-bouncer, BTW, who was near the top of the US Div I point standings a couple of years ago ) said that not only has she never seen any utility in it but that contrary to several assertions here on the board "all" top epeeists do NOT bounce. She named Seth Kelsey specifically as someone who doesn't, and said that generally the Germans and Italians don't; that it's a coach-specific thing...

So it seems there's a bit of selective perception going on: bounce-advocates think everyone worth a sou does it, those who don't do it themselves believe that there are lots like them. And sometimes they are citing the same people!

Couple things:

1) don't watch much women's epee. Can't say how much they bounce. I know Flessel does, but beyond that, I don't think I can say I've seen too many others that I remember fence.

2) Every time I fence Kelsy at circuits and training camps, he's bouncing.

3) Every time I've fenced a german epee fencer, they've bounced. This goes from retired fencers, Schmitt, jr. national champ, etc...

It' not selective. I have tapes. Check out fencing footage...

[Epeecurean]

Hi Inq, I'm glad you are pushing for empirical evidence or at least some theory behind why fencers, and epee fencers in particular, bounce. It's been a revealing and useful thread.

On the question of traction:

Are you saying that traction makes no difference to the ability to push off in one direction or another? Or that the amount of weight pushing down has no effect on traction?

I think this actually supports the case for the bounce. Of course there is less traction than traditional footwork when the bouncer is 'up', but when he is 'down' there is GREATER traction as the amount of weight pushing down is greater. In addition, on the 'down' movement the fencer is likely to be in a properly deep en guard position (i.e. his springs are fully loaded). Combine this with the plyometric effect we discussed earlier, and I'd say that bouncing:

* adds more explosive power/speed;
* enables quicker changes of direction; and,
* allows one to make those critically small adjustments to the distance.

Cheers,

Epeecurean

[Inquartata]

Stay steady

Heh, you realize that you're saying this to a sabre fencer, right?

[Inquartata]

Are you starting a Reformation?

Ack! God forbid!

Maybe an Inquisition. No one ever expects the----

[Inquartata]

Of course there is less traction than traditional footwork when the bouncer is 'up', but when he is 'down' there is GREATER traction as the amount of weight pushing down is greater. In addition, on the 'down' movement the fencer is likely to be in a properly deep en guard position (i.e. his springs are fully loaded).

That seems logical.

So, one is left with being + half the time and - half the time. Is this truly better than being at equilibrium all the time? The former seems riskier to me somehow...

[jBirch]

Heh, you realize that you're saying this to a sabre fencer, right?

Heh, you realise that you're saying this to a sabre fencer, right? <g>

[Inquartata]

Heh, you realise that you're saying this to a sabre fencer, right? <g>

One who stands still? Impostor! Heretic! Apostate!

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Well even there your argument falls apart. At least in Epee.

Schmitt, is from Germany and wears uhlmann and adidas shoes
Srecki used to wear Soudet and wear either Nike or Asics, until the French team received sponsorship from Adidas and Allstar.

Kolobkov wears a mix. Mostly because he was sponsored by France Lames during the 200 Olympic games. Although now I think he's using Allstar.

Milanoli wears Negrini and Diadora if I'm not mistaken.

Jeanett wears soudet with Adidas tennis shoes.

The good fencers know, it's not the equipment, but the mind, heart and soul of the fencer.

So don't compare techniques like bouncing to what jacket a fencer wears.

I get the feeling that the comparison was made to strengthen his argument that the fact people bounce doesn't necessarely mean they're good because they bounce. Just like people might wear Adidas shoes and use Uhlmann weapon blades but that doesn't mean they have some kind of "edge" on the competition.

From my postition (foil) it makes no sense that being off of the ground for most of a bout, at least to a degree, would ever help you change direction. If anything it would mean you use up energy for no reason and get hit more.

So like Inq I'd prefer if there was some kind of full proof evidence that bouncing works.

Back in '92 or '93 Seamus Robinson won the World Under 17 Championships after my coach taught him foil, he'd never had an Epee lesson in his life. If he'd never fenced Epee before he wouldn't have known how to bounce.

I know this post is late but what can you do?