Hopping Footwork

[Grasshopper]

But is it causation, or just correlation?

I asked an A epeeist today about its usefulness, he said it's good when you want to set up a fleche, otherwise he never does it. ( Of course, he's just a hoi polloi domestic epeeist, not a WC one. )

You can't try to understand the effectiveness of a fencing technique as either "causation or correlation". It's better to try to think about "why" it works sometimes and not other times. Fencing is not a science, it's an art.

[Inquartata]

You can't try to understand the effectiveness of a fencing technique as either "causation or correlation". It's better to try to think about "why" it works

Uh, that would BE causation...

I am asking whether in fact it exerts any useful effect, and you are assuming that it does by saying "why it works".

If I have great success in fencing while carrying a rabbit's foot in my pocket, and if other fencers then start carrying them also and are successful, does it follow that the rabbit's foot is causing the success?

If every rooster on earth crows when the sun comes up, does this demonstrate that cockcrow CAUSE the sun to come up?

If every successful epeeist bounces, is this proof that the bouncing is causing their success?

[Grasshopper]

Uh, that would BE causation...

I am asking whether in fact it exerts any useful effect, and you are assuming that it does by saying "why it works".

If I have great success in fencing while carrying a rabbit's foot in my pocket, and if other fencers then start carrying them also and are successful, does it follow that the rabbit's foot is causing the success?

If every rooster on earth crows when the sun comes up, does this demonstrate that cockcrow CAUSE the sun to come up?

If every successful epeeist bounces, is this proof that the bouncing is causing their success?

No, of course not. Dude, you are asking a question that requires a yes or no answer: "Is it causation or correlation". As with any complex dynamic, their is no simple answer. If your real question is "Will bouncing make me a better fencer?" then you have to dig a bit deeper and ask yourself "Why do most of the strong epee fencers bounce?" Trust me, they are not doing it to look cool.

[Inquartata]

And we know that because...?

I suppose Milanoli wears that gawd-awful clown mask because it makes him a better fencer, not because it makes him look "cool"?

Yes, sadly fencers---even good ones---are known to pay attention to such matters...

[Grasshopper]

And we know that because...?

I suppose Milanoli wears that gawd-awful clown mask because it makes him a better fencer, not because it makes him look "cool"?

Yes, sadly fencers---even good ones---are known to pay attention to such matters...

Honestly, trying to understand what is going on in Milanoli's head when he is on the strip is far more interesting to me than what he is wearing on it.

[achilleus]

And we know that because...?

I suppose Milanoli wears that gawd-awful clown mask because it makes him a better fencer, not because it makes him look "cool"?

Yes, sadly fencers---even good ones---are known to pay attention to such matters...

He wears to mock the french who referred to him as a clown in one of the press releases.

As for domestic fencers, I can think of 4 off the top of my head:

Kelsey
Mattern
Thompson
Viviani

You can doubt it, but it works, and every top fencer uses it at some time. Even if it's just to set up a fleche. Although, if that's the only time someone uses it, they are telegraphing their action...

[Inquartata]

Honestly, trying to understand what is going on in Milanoli's head when he is on the strip is far more interesting to me than what he is wearing on it.

Good luck with that!

[Inquartata]

As for domestic fencers, I can think of 4 off the top of my head:

Kelsey
Mattern
Thompson
Viviani

How coincidental that that list is in the same order as the points list on the USFA website...

You can doubt it, but it works, and every top fencer uses it at some time.

It's not that I want to doubt just for the sake of doubting, but you know, where else in life would you accept as evidence "It works, just take my word for it"?

Assertion is not evidence, and correlation still doesn't demonstrate causation. And I notice that no one has given even any sort of specific anecdotal evidence, like "X used to beat me, then I started bouncing and kicked his derriere", or "I was a U for years, then I started bouncing and shot to a B in a month". Thus far it's only been "It works. Trust me."

[sabreur]

I'm startled to discover that Grasshopper can communicate in other than pseudo-Zen koans.

Quart,

You are turning into a real sourpuss, you know?

BOT, I think epee fencers who bounce tend to move slightly forward and backward when they do so. You can actually see sabre fencers do something similar, except they bounce way forward and back--I think it is dumb in sabre, but a lot of the really good guys do it--I keep thinking that if your timing was good, you could attack/counterattack into the forward bounce, but it's harder than it looks.

As far as turning the front foot in--Touya and some of the other french sabreurs have a very decided toe-in, as in turning their foot sideways, when they are retreating fast. Physiologically, it makes sense--you can drive harder (we don't lunge with the back foot pointed back...), but I've never been able to incorporate it into my game...

MR

[Inquartata]

Quart,

You are turning into a real sourpuss, you know?

Curmudgeon. I prefer the term 'curmudgeon'.

You can actually see sabre fencers do something similar, except they bounce way forward and back--I think it is dumb in sabre, but a lot of the really good guys do it--I keep thinking that if your timing was good, you could attack/counterattack into the forward bounce, but it's harder than it looks.

My coach refers to this as "pulsing". I don't know if it's a term of his own coinage or borrowed from elsewhere.

It really only strikes me as useful if your opponent will do it, too. Otherwise he'll be attacking while you're bouncing. And we all know what that usually portends in sabre. I have tried it and not been able to get any use out of it, myself. Maybe it takes better reflexes and speed than I've got...

[achilleus]

How coincidental that that list is in the same order as the points list on the USFA website...

Coincidence or proof that bouncing is effective?

It's not that I want to doubt just for the sake of doubting, but you know, where else in life would you accept as evidence "It works, just take my word for it"?

Assertion is not evidence, and correlation still doesn't demonstrate causation. And I notice that no one has given even any sort of specific anecdotal evidence, like "X used to beat me, then I started bouncing and kicked his derriere", or "I was a U for years, then I started bouncing and shot to a B in a month". Thus far it's only been "It works. Trust me."

Bouncing is used to improve mobility as I stated earlier.

When I don't bounce I get caught flat footed and hit. When I do bounce I move better, control the distance better, and win more.

Is that anecdotal? If not, how about this:

When my coach first taught me to bounce, I started winning bouts against opponents who had previously beaten me consistently. They would come up to me afterward, and tell me how sloppy I looked, and ask what was wrong with my form.

A short time after that, and many hours spent practicing to bounce, I jumped from an E to C.

By bouncing, one gains mobility, but loses the textbook on guard. In today's game, mobility is a very important key to competitive success, and the trade off, in epee, is well worth it.

[whtouche]

You can actually see sabre fencers do something similar, except they bounce way forward and back--I think it is dumb in sabre, but a lot of the really good guys do it--I keep thinking that if your timing was good, you could attack/counterattack into the forward bounce, but it's harder than it looks.MR

I've also noticed that, and used to do it myself. I still do a bit, depending on my opponant. The easiest way to make use of it against your opponant is if you're both doing it, lull him into some sort of rhythm, then break it and attack. It's a good way to take over the attack against certain opponants.

[Army Fencer]

Inquartata, when you set up the randomized, clinically controlled trail, let us know, because that's the only way you're going to move from correlation to causation. Until then, the people who are winning are the people who bounce.

My foot turns in as well, Genjuro. I don't think that it is that much of a problem. The reason why I was told to keep my foot straight was because when everything is in line, your movements are all forward. I don't know. I don't have a problem with tip control or moving on the strip. Also, many WC level althetes turn their foot in as well, so I don't feel alone.

I started bouncing because I saw other people do it. I was finally taught to bounce when I got to DCFC. If I am not moving up and down the strip,my coach has me bounce with my feet remaining in contact with the ground. Even when I'm moving up and down the strip, my feet are still very close to the ground. That way I'm not caught in the middle of an action and I can respond quickly since I'm not in the air for very long, if at all.

[dunastor]

when you set up the randomized, clinically controlled trail,

You forgot "double blind"

[wflaschka]

Which still begs the question, are they really as good as they are because they bounce, or despite it? Or does it really have no demonstrable effect either way, and they do it because everyone else does it, because there's a bandwagon effect? Or just because "that's the way I was taught"?

Inq, I originally thought you were joshing. The bouncing isn't a traditionalist thing, or a "way I was taught" thing, it's a best-practice method used by many (not all) to keep the distance unguessable. Predictability is not an outcome of the bouncing when it's done right, and certainly beginners aren't taught this (I've seen beginners' interpretations of 'bouncing'), if ever, until they attain a certain level.

I'm certain there's a bandwagon effect. Fencers jump on the bandwagon when they get incessantly smushed by faster, unreachable bouncers. I'm certain they'll jump off again when some fencer shows an even better footwork technique which leads materially to improved results. There are no studies (afaik ), but the high-level athletes achieve their results by being spectacularly unsentimental, they pare away bad habits and anything which is detrimental to their performance. This isn't universal, just best-practice, and MMV.

[Victor]

I bounce. And I don't. Depends on what I need at the time, and the transitions are pretty darn fast.

Ya know, some of the anti-bounce misconceptions being shared here might be due to what the term "bounce" means to a person. The movement should be as refined and quick as possible, without extra air time. No off-the-floor hopping. More of a bendy-ness and flexing of the leg muscles than anything else.

In actual use, the ups and downs are so speedy as to be impossible to time. It's like a constant state of vibration. And at any instant in the "bounce," a fencer can still trigger a spring reflex to advance or retreat. That repetitive muscle contraction really does help a body move more quickly ... IF you've been training that way. (Thank you, plyometrics!) This is not a skill you pick up overnight.

[Inquartata]

When I don't bounce I get caught flat footed and hit. When I do bounce I move better, control the distance better, and win more.

When my coach first taught me to bounce, I started winning bouts against opponents who had previously beaten me consistently.

A short time after that, and many hours spent practicing to bounce, I jumped from an E to C.

This is much better. Still anecdotal, but given a sufficient number of other people with the same sort of testimonials....

[Inquartata]

Inquartata, when you set up the randomized, clinically controlled trail, let us know, because that's the only way you're going to move from correlation to causation. Until then, the people who are winning are the people who bounce.

Yes. Probably an awful lot of the "people who are winning" wear Adidas fencing shoes, too. Doubtless that means that the shoes are making them win...

Or the Allstar masks.

Or the Uhlmann knickers.

Or maybe yelling makes them win.

Or drinking Gatorade.

How could anyone possibly doubt it?

[Inquartata]

In actual use, the ups and downs are so speedy as to be impossible to time. It's like a constant state of vibration. And at any instant in the "bounce," a fencer can still trigger a spring reflex to advance or retreat.

I have heard this said before. But logically, given the approximate minimum human reaction time of 3/10ths of a second, if the opponent cannot "time" your bounce so as to catch you at a certain point, neither can you while bouncing react at a certain time. The perceptual rules constrain you both. You cannot in truth choose "any instant" in your bounce to move. This is why distance is so critical in fencing: if you are too close you can be hit before your brain registers a threat and tells your body to do something about it. If the opponent, by design or by chance, attacks when you are at the apogee of your bounce, even if your feet are still in contact with the ground you'll have less traction than if they were firmly planted, less purchase for your leg muscles to use to take you out of harm's way--or to take advantage of an opening. If you are a good fencer you may still escape unscathed and riposte, due to your distance, superior bladework, or whatever; but you have very slightly lessened your ability to do this by being "up in the air".

At least that's the way I see it. Is there a flaw in that analysis?

[achilleus]

Yes. Probably an awful lot of the "people who are winning" wear Adidas fencing shoes, too. Doubtless that means that the shoes are making them win...

Or the Allstar masks.

Or the Uhlmann knickers.

Or maybe yelling makes them win.

Or drinking Gatorade.

How could anyone possibly doubt it?

Well even there your argument falls apart. At least in Epee.

Schmitt, is from Germany and wears uhlmann and adidas shoes
Srecki used to wear Soudet and wear either Nike or Asics, until the French team received sponsorship from Adidas and Allstar.

Kolobkov wears a mix. Mostly because he was sponsored by France Lames during the 200 Olympic games. Although now I think he's using Allstar.

Milanoli wears Negrini and Diadora if I'm not mistaken.

Jeanett wears soudet with Adidas tennis shoes.

The good fencers know, it's not the equipment, but the mind, heart and soul of the fencer.

So don't compare techniques like bouncing to what jacket a fencer wears.