Hopping Footwork

[Genjuro]

Where do you fence, Genjuro, and what weapon?

(Do I know you?)

Epee and foil, and I fence somewhere in Brabant. I think we know each other... (if you are the sabrefencer who I think you are)

[dunastor]

A small experiment: is your lunge more explosive preceeded by a step or a balestra?

I don't think there's much difference between the power of my lunge in a balestra or a patinando when I practice them.

On the other hand, with a patinando I already have a good momentum forward, and with a balestra you always have to take caution not to have too much momentum upwards from the jump. (or maybe I just have to practice more balestras... )

[achilleus]

This bouncing phenomenon was brought up in another thread, and it piqued my interest somewhat, so the last tournament I was at ( some unheralded little affair which no one has ever heard of, in Amarillo ) I watched the epee. I noticed that a very solidly grounded and often almost motionless Ray Sexton crushed an awful lot of bouncers...and of the bouts I watched the nonbouncers won about half. Judging by the ration I am lead to wonder whether there isn't a placebo effect at work.

Kolobkov
Srecki
Cuomo
Milanoli
Schimtt
Chouvalov
Obry
Trevejo

All world class epee fencers who bounce. There are more, those are just off the top of my head.

When I was first taught to bounce, my coach, former olympian who bounced, told me 'The best bounce. You will too.'

My experiences in fencing at world cups, and watching videos bear him out.

[Aeric]

I wouldn't bounce when I'm shifting the distance when we're both far away.

However, when the blades begin to connect is when I start bouncing. Sort of like a jump rope, and it keeps your toe in motion. I'm more sluggish mentally when my feet aren't always moving.

[noodle]

Kolobkov
Srecki
Cuomo
Milanoli
Schimtt
Chouvalov
Obry
Trevejo

All world class epee fencers who bounce. There are more, those are just off the top of my head.

When I was first taught to bounce, my coach, former olympian who bounced, told me 'The best bounce. You will too.'

My experiences in fencing at world cups, and watching videos bear him out.

yea, you got most of the ones i can think of for sure, too. i think jeannet bounces a bit also while he's straddling the strip. if you don't bounce, odds are you're going to get caught flat footed more often than someone who does bounce. there are numerous benefits to bouncing that correlate to other martial arts, as well. if you don't bounce at least a bit, i'd suggest you try and pick it up and figure out or get someone to explain the benefits

[achilleus]

yea, you got most of the ones i can think of for sure, too. i think jeannet bounces a bit also while he's straddling the strip. if you don't bounce, odds are you're going to get caught flat footed more often than someone who does bounce. there are numerous benefits to bouncing that correlate to other martial arts, as well. if you don't bounce at least a bit, i'd suggest you try and pick it up and figure out or get someone to explain the benefits

All the guys I mentioned bounce a lot. Almost everyone I can think of does at some time or another, just not as much.

Some are more effective than others.

But in the modern game mobiliity is key.

[daveappr]

I wouldn't bounce when I'm shifting the distance when we're both far away.

However, when the blades begin to connect is when I start bouncing. Sort of like a jump rope, and it keeps your toe in motion. I'm more sluggish mentally when my feet aren't always moving.

I tend to agree with you Aeric, I feel more mentally alert when bouncing- and seemingly able to change direction more quickly. Sometimes, however, it seems as if a bouncing fencer will fall into a rhythm back and forth than can be picked up on very quickly if they're not very experienced at it. And a number of fencers, when in a closely contested bout seem to lose track of where they are, ie. greater hops forward than back losing their distance

[rtran]

Sometimes, however, it seems as if a bouncing fencer will fall into a rhythm back and forth than can be picked up on very quickly if they're not very experienced at it. And a number of fencers, when in a closely contested bout seem to lose track of where they are, ie. greater hops forward than back losing their distance

Bouncing should never be in a rhythmic back and forth motion. It's like normal footwork where you either bounce in a stationary position or forward if you're advancing and backwards if you're retreating. Sounds to me like a fencer that bounces back and forth is the type to take a step back and forth if they aren't bouncing (which would be equally predicatable).

[Mistaratsnatch]

Hmm...my friend does a hopping thing as well...In one particular attack he does, he hops forward (diagonal left and right). He claims it to be a way of trickery or something...Doesnt really work tho...

btw...who likes my avatar (editted picture of myself)

[ElementalRyuu]

I don't think there's much difference between the power of my lunge in a balestra or a patinando when I practice them.

What's a patinando?

Genjuro, there's 2 different methods (not sure if they're correct since im not that experienced ) that I can think of to help you.
1. If you're turning your foot in slightly, try to consciously turn it in the opposing direction at the times when you know from experience that you usually turn it in subconsciously. Eventually you can counter the turn-in almost subconsciously as well, so it'll be easier.
2. You can try jumping to the opposing side of your turn-in (Just don't jump over the boundary lines.) while you are going to attack (To correct your turn-in and gain momentum for your attack.) or about to counter-attack (To evade your opponent's attack while doing correcting and gaining momentum.) your opponent.
Please keep in mind that I'm still ineqperienced! But that's just what I think can help you.

[Inquartata]

Kolobkov
Srecki
Cuomo
Milanoli
Schimtt
Chouvalov
Obry
Trevejo

All world class epee fencers who bounce. There are more, those are just off the top of my head.

When I was first taught to bounce, my coach, former olympian who bounced, told me 'The best bounce. You will too.'

My experiences in fencing at world cups, and watching videos bear him out.

Which still begs the question, are they really as good as they are because they bounce, or despite it? Or does it really have no demonstrable effect either way, and they do it because everyone else does it, because there's a bandwagon effect? Or just because "that's the way I was taught"?

[dunastor]

What's a patinando?

A patinando is a step-lunge

[edew]

Which still begs the question, are they really as good as they are because they bounce, or despite it? Or does it really have no demonstrable effect either way, and they do it because everyone else does it, because there's a bandwagon effect? Or just because "that's the way I was taught"?

Obviously not because despite it, otherwise, we should see some who don't bounce do well. And none who don't bounce do well. Some are taught not to bounce. They're not in the top of the game.

[sabreman]

>>Even some very high level epee fencers seem to do it, while it is almost never seen beyond the beginner for foil or sabre.
>>
I am not a foilist but I seem to remember watching tapes of Romankov and he tended to turn his lead foot in. I do not see this as a big issue.

[Inquartata]

Obviously not because despite it, otherwise, we should see some who don't bounce do well. And none who don't bounce do well. Some are taught not to bounce. They're not in the top of the game.

Really? You're claiming that EVERY SINGLE EPEE FENCER who does well bounces?

Pardon me if I am skeptical.

[ztron24]

This bouncing phenomenon was brought up in another thread, and it piqued my interest somewhat, so the last tournament I was at ( some unheralded little affair which no one has ever heard of, in Amarillo ) I watched the epee. I noticed that a very solidly grounded and often almost motionless Ray Sexton crushed an awful lot of bouncers...and of the bouts I watched the nonbouncers won about half. Judging by the ration I am lead to wonder whether there isn't a placebo effect at work.

well, of course the hop doesn't promise success, you know, it's got to be in cobination with some timing, bladework, etc. ray sexton and i fenced together for a few years at afc, and although he's not a hopped, his footwork is incredible smooth and fluid. it's fast and he can change directions easily. it always impressed me for a guy his size, he can really move. he looks like he's rooted to the ground, but watch how quick he can pull out of that. it's a matter of staying light on your feet, i think, and bouncing helps some folks do that....

[Schiavona]

A patinando is a step-lunge

I was taught the a patinando as an advance-step-lunge.

my Kung Fu is different from your Kung Fu.........

[ElementalRyuu]

thanks for the help

[achilleus]

Really? You're claiming that EVERY SINGLE EPEE FENCER who does well bounces?

Pardon me if I am skeptical.

The ones I mentioned are bounce a lot. Three of them have also dominated epee since the late 1980's.

The other top epee fencers I've seen do bounce, just not all the time. It tends to vary with age and athleticism.

I have yet to see an elite level fencer at a WC since I've watched or attended (late 80's) not use bouncing footwork at some time or another.

You can be skeptical, but then again, I get the feeling that you were skeptical when your coach told you to hold the grip with your hand, and hit the person with the pointy end.

[Inquartata]

The ones I mentioned are bounce a lot. Three of them have also dominated epee since the late 1980's.

The other top epee fencers I've seen do bounce, just not all the time. It tends to vary with age and athleticism.

But is it causation, or just correlation?

I asked an A epeeist today about its usefulness, he said it's good when you want to set up a fleche, otherwise he never does it. ( Of course, he's just a hoi polloi domestic epeeist, not a WC one. )