Vaguely disturbing from Nats

[Purple Fencer]

The coah at my salle told me something last night that bothers me a little.

Some of the folks on this board know me from either my salle (Slim Grady) or from competitions where they's either fenced or directed me (Edew). And they's seen both my purple color scheme and seen/heard me fence, so they know that while I'm not particularly skilled and my form isn't exactly good to look at, I fight hard and am nothing if not enthusiastic.

Here's the prob. The coach overheard some directors talking about me during one of my DEs at Nats (I think it was the one where I got knocked out). They were laughing and making some commentary about me and my gear, and the coach felt that it may working against me to a certain extent, i.e. if there's a double light and it's a really close call, the director may be more inclined to give the touch to whoever presents himself to the strip mroe in accordance with the traditional view of the sport, meaning complete whites and with good form.

Frankly, I could care less what people say about me, as long as it's truthful. I got out of worrying about that years ago. Myh wife likes me, my cats like me, I have a decent circle of friends in fencing, drum corps and sci-fi/fantasy fandom, and I don't need anyone else's approval to validate my life.

However, the possibility that directors may be slightly biased based on my appearance and behavior (even though I've been called the most friendly guy on the strip several times) disturbs me. Not to the extent where I'm going to change...it just gives me a reason to land more one-lighters. However, when I direct, I'm brutaly honest. Ask Slim Grady. I was directing his pool at his very first tournament this season and called a parry riposte against him for a 5-4 loss in his final pool bout. I refused to talk to him or another teammate in the same pool during the pool stage, even though I really wanted to offer coaching advice against, but that would've been a real conflict of intrest for me.

Has anyone else had this problem? It doesn't bother me so much, but I'm a little concerned about other fencers who might be "punished" for expressing a little individuallity in this sport.

Or am I just over sensitive?

[edew]

Hey, it happens to everyone. Whether it's your appearance, your experience, your reputation, your skin color, or whatever. There will be some bias from the referees. Peter Westbrook described how he was screwed constantly in international fencing because of his national identity and skin color. A black American just isn't going to get too many touches, especially during the pre-electric days.

I got calls against me during the Div I Nationals because the referee heard of my opponent more than of me.

Is appearance a part of this? Wake up. Fencers who wear black shoes are going to get dinged on close calls. Guaranteed. And it's not because of the shoes. The shoes are indicative of other attributes, including the propensity to counter-attack into an attack. And even if one such counter-attack was launched at an appropriate time, it just won't be called that often.

Purple socks? We had a special referees meeting near the end of the Summer Nationals and agreed to screw all purple socked fencers on average about three touches.

[edew]

I guess biases such as these things apply to other sports as well. If you're Barry Bonds, your strike-zone is anything you swung at and missed (or fouled off). If you're some newbie scrub, as long as the catcher didn't have to dive for the ball, it's a strike.

If you're Dennis Rodman, you caused the foul. If you're Michael Jordan, you were fouled. C'est la vie.

[its_me_mango]

Sam, I don't know what to say, I'm going to stick up for you here in this forum. It stinks, but don't use the word punished, it sounds weird, just say that you realize that your individuality is being SLAMMED by a few people who toe the line and follow the mob. Keep your individuality, and creativity going, in a tough bout, you may be the one to come up with the winning point. People like you are creative and classically "think outside of the box" the rest of the world waits to be instructed in those sorts of things.

[Peach]

I'm going to say something horrifying, which everybody seems to think shouldn't happen: yes, points sometimes get awarded based on appearance, age, style, and reputation, not to mention who your coach is and who your opponent is. I've lost points that way, I've gained points that way, and as a referee I'm sure I've awarded points that way even if I consciously try to avoid it. I KNOW it happens, and it's not an evil conspiracy, it's just the way the human brain works.

So?

So I'm going to say something else equally horrifying: It doesn't matter THAT much. It is possible to work hard at fencing, get good, earn a reputation, and still keep your perspective and your sense of humor. It sounds as if your coach is a tad too concerned with appearances.

I speak from experience. Anybody who has known me knows I started out as your basic figure of fun and these days I sometimes get reputation touches. And it isn't my behavior on the strip or my appearance that has changed, believe me.

[Peach]

Originally posted by edew:
<STRONG>Purple socks? We had a special referees meeting near the end of the Summer Nationals and agreed to screw all purple socked fencers on average about three touches. </STRONG>

I guess that's why our junior fencer with the orange socks finished 8th instead of higher in the U-19 ME. What about navy blue socks? Are they worth one point? Do those little frilly lacy ankle socks I'm planning to wear over my fencing socks count at all, or is it What Lies Beneath which determines the penalty? Or those toe socks with the rainbow stripes, or the tie-dye soccer socks I saw? I am awaiting the ruling with bated breath, as my fall fencing fashion statement depends on the answers.

[its_me_mango]

I think the problem is that we are sympathic to Purples' freedom of expression in that it is harmless and comes from a fun loving attitude. The problem may be that others find it distraction in their direction duties. Maybe we should reserve our creativity for our fencing bags or other things, and give in to officialdom. I wear white attire while I fence, but the rest of the time I wear all sorts of stuff. Maybe you'll have to sign on as silver-otto, and change your pen name? Well will arrive at a meeting of minds Purple/silver, you'll see!

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: its_me_mango ]

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by edew:
<STRONG>
Purple socks? We had a special referees meeting near the end of the Summer Nationals and agreed to screw all purple socked fencers on average about three touches. </STRONG>

Eric,

Thanks! After the day I had at work today, I needed the laugh!

[MikeHarm]

If you can't take the directors weaseling in foil, switch to epee.

Mike

[space_cadet]

Bad form. I don't like bad form if it goes hand-in-hand with sloppy fencing. If you have a bad form with smooth, quick, and accurate technique, that makes for interesting fencing.

Different socks. You can experiment and see how the directing goes at the next NAC with all white socks.

[Moonitic]

Purple, that sucks. I can't say I relate, though, because Michigan fencers definitely have their own flair. The U of M girls wear maize & blue striped socks. The UFO girls wear tye-dyed (looks camoflaged if you ask me). The men? Well...a clean uniform is a strange sight. Even our directors have their own "style". One is identified by his motorcycle boots.

And, we can't say that we don't do well in National competitions. Annie Austin got 2nd place in Div 1-A women's foil. She wears a pretty blue lame, instead of the usual silver.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by MikeHarm:
<STRONG>If you can't take the directors weaseling in foil, switch to epee.

Mike </STRONG>

You haven't seen me fence epee, apparently! I do all three (and have no plans to stop), so abandoning one weapon for another wouldn't work. Besides, that's a cheap escape from the problem. I'll just keep pluggin' away.

[DamedEscrime]

If its any concolation, Sam, I like your socks.

[Cutter]

I will only add that I concur with most of the responses already posted. Lets face it folks, referee's are human. And many are biased without knowing it. I have heard so many things from referees and our own illustrious organization to realize that you can't beat 'em and you sure wouldn't want to join them in their ideas. So you live with it. You know going out there that sometimes you will get the "grey" calls, sometimes you won't. Maybe this director likes purple socks, maybe this one won't. In the great scheme of things, it all never really matters. Just focus on your game and continue to strive to be the one that gets those calls because you are "who you are." And I personnally like purple socks. I was always a Donnie Osmond fan as a kid.

[Purple Fencer]

Thanks, Cutter & Dame. I appreciate the comments.

I should probably clarify that none of this affects my fencing. I just find it bothersome from a directing standpoint. No matter how I feel about someone's behavior, clothing, etc., I make a definite effort to distance myself from those feelings when I'm directing and just judge the actions according to my understanding of the rules of the weapon. Unfortunately, it works against some of my teammates (I red carded once for swearing in a team qualifier thie season), but the director can't be anyone's friend.

I just don't like the idea of bias entering into an area where there shouldn't be any. Ah well...

[Shadow Fencer]

Hmmm, definitely interesting thought that a director may be biased because of what a fencer is wearing....never gave any thought about this before as when I direct, I'm too busy watching the blades!!!

I love purple and probably the only reason why I stay with white socks is so I can launder all my fencing stuff in one load!

Purple, don't change because one of these days I'd like to meet you in person and how in the heck am I ever going to find you if you don't wear those purple socks???

[Purple Fencer]

Well...since you're in New Yawk and I'm in Cal-e-forn-eye-a, that'll take some doing. However, I'm definitely planning on the Div II/III in Reno in March, if not the one in Sandy in January.

[MikeHarm]

Perhaps a humble purple patch on your jacket would allow you purpleness without the mocking.

Mike

[fred]

Well, PF, your attire is a lot easier to take than some of the purple prose elsewhere on this board

And no, epee is not the solution, because there seems to be a flagrant bias toward lengthy stringbean-like humans there. When I saw the alien dudes in A.I. it made clear Kubrick's vision of a future dominated by epee...

[sabreur]

Well..... I don't have a problem with purple socks, but I do find some other attributes a little bizarre--florid salutes are in my mind a tip off that someone might not be quite right in the head--I've seen some three-dimensional swishes complete with a bow or curtsey at the end that made it difficult for me to take the fencer (who was not all that bad) seriously.

Sabre is a simple weapon; a simple vertical dip to the opponent, and a horizontal once around the room for everyone else suffices.

Regards, MR