Talking to your opponent

[CarlKnoch]

I was just reading the shouting thread and someone talked about saying "nice touch" or touche when you're touched. Brought up a recent conversation I had. :::::::Fades to a shot of the conversation in progress with the voices muted and I'm still narating...:::::

I recently talked with a referee who doesn't like when competitors talk to each other during a bout. Saying things like, "good touch" or "sorry" apparently are taboo to him.

So it begs the question, how many fencers talk to their opponent during bouts, and compliment their actions after touches?

How many refs out there think that's inappropriate and should be avoided?

Also, how many have had a fencer trash talk them on the strip?

[telkanuru]

Short, non-bout-delaying comments or questions are good, and promote a feeling of friendship among competators. I don't think a ref should try to mess with that. If I hit someone too hard, I'm saying sorry, and that's that. Long conversations, no. Trash-talking, never happened to me, and no.

[noodle]

i don't have a problem with the short comments of this nature after halt. but there's (obviously) a problem when your opponent starts saying stuff like "you suck" after halt or doing any talking while fencing.

[fixxmyweapon]

i dont think i have ever heard of or seen a situation where there was trash talking on the strip. off the strip, yeah, plenty of times. i think its alright to say "nice touch" or "sorry" after the halt for reasons. but when people say "nice touch" after EVERY touch, yeah, that can be annoying.

[glowstix]

yeah, nothing wrong with that...i definitely think a "sorry" is in order after every hard touch/hit. if the bout is tense and close late, then i'll put aside the "nice touch" until afterwards.

[noodle]

well, i mean, if i got a "nice touch" after every point and i deserved it, it'd be cool. but if the guy said "nice touch" every time but really meant "lucky touch" (the situation would likely be me fencing someone 'better' and arogant) then it'd be really annoying but there's not much the director could really do.

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by CarlKnoch

I recently talked with a referee who doesn't like when competitors talk to each other during a bout. Saying things like, "good touch" or "sorry" apparently are taboo to him.

So it begs the question, how many fencers talk to their opponent during bouts, and compliment their actions after touches?

How many refs out there think that's inappropriate and should be avoided?

I have commented "nice touch" - but never if they are bellowing. I more frequently talk out loud to myself: like "oh, nooo!" and "stupid." Sometimes I laugh when the action becomes especially awkward or I do something silly, like falling down (try pulling your toe back to avoid a touch just as you land a lunge), or trip on a wrinkle in the copper... Then there's "Hey - you've de-gloved me!" and my favorite: "Can I get a do-over?" after getting caught completely flat footed, or walking into the point. Most refs get a chuckle out of that.

I haven't been trash talked to yet, but have received some icey stares, to which I usually reply with a smile, and once with the comment "lighten up" which I had no qualms about saying since I was losing.

[Aeric]

I say "Sorry" if I get an off-target in an unfavorable area, or if I miss the toe in epee and hit the floor.

It is taboo in my club to say "Nice touch" because it creates the image that you're trying to teach the opponent. If they hit you, then they're probably aware it was a nice touch. Comments are reserved for coaches only.

Though I don't see anything with a comment once in a while to lighten the mood like telkanuru says.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by CarlKnoch

I was just reading the shouting thread and someone talked about saying "nice touch" or touche when you're touched. Brought up a recent conversation I had. :::::::Fades to a shot of the conversation in progress with the voices muted and I'm still narating...:::::

I recently talked with a referee who doesn't like when competitors talk to each other during a bout. Saying things like, "good touch" or "sorry" apparently are taboo to him.

So it begs the question, how many fencers talk to their opponent during bouts, and compliment their actions after touches?

How many refs out there think that's inappropriate and should be avoided?

Also, how many have had a fencer trash talk them on the strip?

As a fencer, I don't believe in complimenting my opponent, or apologizing especially during a tournament. Now I have done these things, but I don't see it as neccessary, or rude to not do it.

As a ref, I don't mind the fencers talking briefly to each other as long as it does not interfere with the bout.

Personally, I've been involved in several trash talking incidents, none of which I started. I attribute it to my wonderful bedside manner. It was especially bad when I would fence my nemisis at NAC's or world cups...

I've also witnessed and been told several stories of trash talking.

[Katman]

I don't have any problems with small comments such as 'nice touch' or 'good one.' I've never seen any trash talking and I've only seen some one carded for chatting during a bout once.

I try not to apologize for actions unless they are something like a corps la corps that I obviously caused. I will ask if someone's okay if it seems I've caused them pain, but I won't apologize if I've nailed them on their off hand because it drifted into target area.

Originally Posted by Aeric

It is taboo in my club to say "Nice touch" because it creates the image that you're trying to teach the opponent. If they hit you, then they're probably aware it was a nice touch. Comments are reserved for coaches only.

Though I don't see anything with a comment once in a while to lighten the mood like telkanuru says.

That is intresting. I like that and before reading it I never thought anyone would think of comments such as those in that way (blargh, awkward sentance). The more you know.

[rtran]

I did get a "nice reach" from a 10 yr old kid once.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Aeric

It is taboo in my club to say "Nice touch" because it creates the image that you're trying to teach the opponent. If they hit you, then they're probably aware it was a nice touch. Comments are reserved for coaches only.

At my club, at least in our sabre group, we are trying to teach one another all the time. Bouting is practice and drill as much as--or more than--it is competition. But then our coaches are also pretty busy while we're bouting. They're teaching classes and giving lessons, so although they occasionally make comments (sometimes to demonstrate that they have eyes in the backs of their heads ), we have to work on our own. So my teammates, thank heavens, tell me when I'm falling over in my lunge but also tell me when I'm doing well. Even though I'm a noisy and obnoxious competitor, even in the club.

Heck, we'll even say "nice touch" in local tournaments, and I've said it at NACs (and had it said to me).

We're all busy trying to destroy our opponents, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate excellence.

Of course, on reflection I realize I'm a teacher, so it seems natural to me to act like one.

[MyraTrue]

I have no problem with talking on the strip. Being in the collegiate circles, you get to know the people you fence pretty well, and MOST teams are friendly on and off the strip. So I've never had a problems saying "I'm sorry" or "are you ok" when something goes wrong. Or to tell someone "NICE touche" because there are some of those sometimes. You know the kind... you've no idea where the heck it came from and suddenly "c-lick" it goes off on your hand (epee) and you think "I didn't even FEEL that!"

For the times I do direct (which are reluctant, despite being "certified" ) I find nothing wrong with some light comments on the strip. I can't see allowing trash talking, but have never encountered it. For which I'm grateful. I would actually think poorly of a fencer who did engage in something like a hard hit or a hard corps-a-corps and did not appologize. After all, saying "I'm sorry!" can help sway the director to thinking it was all totally accidental, which sometimes I know it isn't. (But I didn't say that).

[D'Artag-NOT]

In my club, we say the occasional, "Nice touch" or "Sorry" during bouts and no-one has a problem with it or finds it patronizing or anything.

As for "trash talking", I'm under the impression that there is a specific rule against taunting by word or action (such as a "bring it on" gesture). Isn't it a cardable offense? In any case, I'm big on courtesy--to me, that's one of the more attractive aspects of fencing culture. Defeat your opponent honorably if you can, but respect the person. (And respect yourself enough to behave like a civilized adult.)

I'm done with this box now, if anyone wants some soap.

[Elemental]

At my club talking during a bout is always short comments along the "nice touch" line. Sometimes a touch or series of actions leads to small discussion between fencers as to what happened and why. The most common sound during a bout (aside from standard fencing sounds) tends to be laughter.

In a competition bout I will compliment an opponent on a good touch and will apologize if it appears that I have caused some pain.

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by CarlKnoch

So it begs the question, how many fencers talk to their opponent during bouts, and compliment their actions after touches?

Also, how many have had a fencer trash talk them on the strip?

Sometimes a touch is just so nice. Either they fooled me or set me up so well that I felt the touch was inevitable, or they execute an unlikely touch with such amazing timing or accuracy that I would have appluaded if I was a spectator. Then I say "nice touch". But you know, come to think of it, the better my opponent is the less likely I am to comment, since they know their touch was nice and probably don't care to hear it from the likes of me. It feels like it would come across as butt kissing or something. I also apologize for anything I do with poor form that might have hurt them. If I execute with good form then I don't apologize for hard hits.

As for trash talking, I count loud screams mid-bout in epee as trash talking, so there is some of it out there. In foil and sabre, where looking like you scored might affect the call, I don't count the screams as trash talking unless it was a clear one-light situation.

[Elemental]

I seem to recall hearing that trash talking could end up getting you a yellow card. I think I read it in Purple Fencer's guide to first tournaments (BTW: great guide Purple).

I've avoided trash talk during the bout except with one friend and even then only when were aren't really fencing all that seriously to begin with. I do participate in a little good natured trash talking before a club bought though.

[Aeric]

Well, I didn't mean that "Nice touch" was reserved ONLY for coaches, (and I probably phrased it wrong). What I meant to say that within structured training practice, it will most likely be with a coach, and you won't comment to them on a nice touch.

If you're sparring with a teammate, then I would usually drop most formalities. I doubt they would mind much.

Elemental, I was aware that trash talk was grounds for a Black card, falling under "Unsportsmanlike Conduct".

[Twinkletoes]

From what I gather, trash talking is strictly frowned upon by both
refs and the head master of any decent Salle. Poor sportsmanship is not
tolarated in fencing circles nor should it be.

We are pitting our skills against each other with steel weapons, albeit blunt,
but they can still cause pain. Respect on the piste is a must in this sport in my opinion.

Thx

Marc

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Elemental

I seem to recall hearing that trash talking could end up getting you a yellow card. I think I read it in Purple Fencer's guide to first tournaments (BTW: great guide Purple).

Thank you! And yes, unless the rule has changed, taunting is cardable (yellow, I think).

I was taught to acknowledge a good touch. Best one I had was at '01 nats, Div III foil when Agusto Roaman (sp?) knocked me out in the round of 32. I;d gotton a little too close and he did one of those sickeningly acrobatic moves that just nailed me.

I was so impressed I shook his hand and said "Dude...awesome touch!", then returned to my en garde line.

The director clearly understood that I was showing appreciation for a masterful touch and it didn;t slow the bout down but maybe 3 seconds, so he said nothing.

To this day....one fo the best foil touches I've ever been on the receiving end of.