Talking to your opponent

[oiuyt]

Thank you! And yes, unless the rule has changed, taunting is cardable (yellow, I think).

Taunting? Nope, don't see that in my rulebook anywhere. In theory the referee could cite either "disturbing order on the strip" (group III) or "unsportsmanlike conduct" (group IV). Hard to make a case for a yellow card (group I) offense. MAYBE "delaying the bout" if one is REALLY trying to stretch a point.

Much more likely it really only falls under unsportsmanlike behavior but isn't severe enough to draw an immediate black. A verbal warning that a fencer is close to crossing that line might be appropriate (which could then be followed with the red, the black or perhaps a "refusal to obey the Referee" yellow card). And of course it could easily be severe enough to merit the direct black card. I've certainly witnessed a situation that should have (did not receive so much as a verbal caution, despite the fact that it degenerated, fairly quickly, into back and forth name-calling and general spitefulness). I've never had such a situation while I was refereeing.

Loud screams in epee are NOT trash talking. Epeeists get excited about nicely set up touches too. Epeeists get excited about those lucky third-remise-battle touches too. Sometimes a yell (in any of the three weapons) is a release of tension or just an expression of joyful release, not just an attempt to fluster an opponent or influence a referee. Even celebratory screams are not trash talking.

-B :)

[Purple Fencer]

Well....either I'm misremembering ('cause I haven't looked at the chart recenrly) or it was a local rule in SoCal...dunno.

[Schiavona]

Well....either I'm misremembering ('cause I haven't looked at the chart recenrly) or it was a local rule in SoCal...dunno.

Divisions can make and apply their own rules?


On the face of it, it most likely seems strange to non-fencers that we can be thrilled by getting hit and scored against. I'm sure we've all had those moments when we almost become entranced by our opponent's action and have to say, sometimes against our will, "Nice touch". I don't think we'd be fencers if this didn't happen to us.

[suregrip]

I can remember several years ago fencing someone who said,"Sorry" after every hit, and they hit hard . It was obvious this person wasn't sorry at all, they were just heavy handed. Towards the end of the bout, I had a sudden 'daydream' of this person signing the bout slip while saying,"Sorry". The thought was so hilarious to me, I broke out in this huge grin as I got back on guarde.

My opponent saw me grinning (I have an old but sturdy mask that allows you to see my face) and thought I was taunting. The next action was him bellowing towards me and winding up for another hit. I merely extended and he impaled himself on my blade.

While I never spoke, I never intended to taunt him either. I understand he was quite upset with me for winning that bout, but I still feel I did nothing wrong.

[Dan H]

Taunting? Nope, don't see that in my rulebook anywhere. In theory the referee could cite either "disturbing order on the strip" (group III) or "unsportsmanlike conduct" (group IV). Hard to make a case for a yellow card (group I) offense. MAYBE "delaying the bout" if one is REALLY trying to stretch a point.

"Disorderly fencing" is a group I offense that's appropriate to call in that situation, if you're pressed as a ref to justify exactly which rule was broken when a fencer gets a yellow for getting out of line. There's are also a Group I offenses for "refusing to obey the referee," which might be relevant. Regardless, the rules state (somewhere - I won't look up the exact reference) that fencing bouts should "maintain the character of a frank and courteous encounter." I take that to indicate that it's in the rules that competitors must, at least outwardly, show proper respect for their opponents, and it's the referee's job to enforce that. I think a yellow card is frequently the most appropriate response to a fencer who is stepping slightly over the line.

[Genjuro]

Is moonwalking back to your engarde position after you make a hit considered as taunting your opponent?

[noodle]

"Disorderly fencing" is a group I offense that's appropriate to call in that situation, if you're pressed as a ref to justify exactly which rule was broken when a fencer gets a yellow for getting out of line. There's are also a Group I offenses for "refusing to obey the referee," which might be relevant. Regardless, the rules state (somewhere - I won't look up the exact reference) that fencing bouts should "maintain the character of a frank and courteous encounter." I take that to indicate that it's in the rules that competitors must, at least outwardly, show proper respect for their opponents, and it's the referee's job to enforce that. I think a yellow card is frequently the most appropriate response to a fencer who is stepping slightly over the line.

i think it depends on how far over the line the fencer steps.

personally, if someone delivers a personal (verbal) attack while on the strip while fencing, i'd halt the bout and deliver a 3rd group red for disturbing order (t.82 defines order as courtsey, intergrity, and sportsmanship) or a 4th group black for offense against sportsmanship if they were really bad with it. but it'd have to be pretty bad. there's no good reason to talk trash about an opponent to their face while on strip. if you want to do that, take it off the strip, or do it amongst your buddies behind their back. but not on my strip.

[D'Artag-NOT]

Mesdames et Messieurs, let us remember who we are.

We are standing, facing our opponent, weapon in hand. Does this not clearly indicate that our seconds have already attempted, without success, to settle the dispute? Surely it is plain that the time for talk is past and gone?

Only in combat can l'honneur be defended. Words--they are useless at this point.

[Reebek]

I will acknowledge a skillfully applied touch, and say "sorry" if it appears I have caused my opponent any undeserved pain. If I know the other fencer, there may be some banter between touches, but the bout is never delayed. For the most part, the ref has found it mildly entertaining.

As for trash talk, I've never experienced it personally. One fencer at our club, however, had an opponent in a Y14 event who would whisper "@$$hole" to him whenever he was close enough. The ref never heard it.

[MikeHarm]

I love talking about fencing but not so much during the fencing as before and after. Last time I talked during a match as I recall I had just had two weapons and 3 body cords confiscated..and after I was hooked up the box with my last body cord it just started randomly blinking off target, first my side and then my opponents, then both, and then repeating. I said something like 'Dear lord, whats wrong with it now?' I think it was appropriate under the circumstances.

[dreadfoily]

it's a touchy topic, for me, if a person compliments me too much I feel sick, no offense, but it's too much for an opponent to make nice-nice to you when you're trying to defeat them, it's could be a nice trick to use if you don't want to get smacked hard, but I don't like it, after the bout, during the handshake is when we usually say, "nice bout", and if the fencer is much better then me then may give me a tip or two to remember for 'next time'. But trash-talk and other 'gestures' have probably never made their way to the olympics, those are still the role-models, so I would follow their example.

[achilleus]

But trash-talk and other 'gestures' have probably never made their way to the olympics, those are still the role-models, so I would follow their example.

Right. That Italian guy, Cerioni, he never trash talked or gestured. Even though he was banned for a year for allegedly giving an obscene gesture to Spanish royalty. We all know that an Olympian would never do anything like that....

And in 2000, when Fischer refused to shake Obry's hand after the bout. He was upset because Obry flopped (fell over on purpose) to convince the ref to red card Fischer. The spoke before they finally shook hands, but I'm sure that they were merely exchanging pleasantries of 'Nice bout. Good luck in the gold.'

2 small examples of a very, very long list...