An Apology

**Jisahn** · 08-19-2002 05:59 PM

Apparently, my use of capitalization in the subject lines has irritated our gracious host, Craig, who finds it "annoying" and "rude". Oh, and he "doesn't like it."

I've never understood this phenomenon, and believe no one really cares, but allow me to explain myself...

Having a military background, as well as a highly, detail oriented career in office administration, subject lines are always in caps, and indicate professionalism.

So, I meant no harm in the virtual realm of fencing and sincerely offer my apology to any and all who acutally spend their time worrying over the typing strategies of others.

I came here to talk about fencing...

**Catlady** · 08-19-2002 08:11 PM

For the most part, I worry more about what people
say than how they type or spell as long as it's not too distracting, read nearly indecipherable, and am usually not anal-retentive enough to call people on it unless it is, but I feel the need to defend Craig a bit here.

According to the generally accepted rules of "'netiquette", typing in all caps is the equivalent of shouting. I've seen it mentioned several times in several different placesIf you carried on all your conversations in a shout, people would find you annoying, same thing here. There is a use for shouting, but for the most part it is like the use of exclamation points, that is, both come in handy, but must be used sparingly. Especially if you want respect. The truth is, and it may be wrong, but it's still true, appearance still acounts for something. How you choose to communicate says a lot about who you are and influences how seriously people take you. If you choose to appear--through whatever means-- a certain way that's fine, even if it isn't what's considered the norm, but be prepared that if you choose to not follow the standard you will get a reaction that may not be positive. Sort of like people who have a hot pink mohawk with multiple body piercings and then get angry because people look at them funny.Granted my background as an English major/writer and now a grad. student in a communications related field makes me more sensitive than average to these things.

The point of communication of any type is to get your point across, and it's best to help your reader/listener/whatever as much as you can. So basically that's what it's about. After a while you notice that all caps, or all lowercase is a lot harder to read. I have not yet reached middle age, but I do read a lot and can tell you for those of us whose eyes are under strain variations on conventional capitalization are a bit taxing. Ultimately, you're taking your chances that people will ignore you.

Sorry about the lecture. I hadn't intended to write one, but this is one of my favorite topics lately, and I guess it comes from a deep seated need to prove that my degree and field of interest are not utterly useless. I know I'm far from perfect myself, and there are definitely areas in which I choose to be unconventional too. Anyway, apology accepted. And congrats, you are truly a patient person if you've read this far, or even better, read this far without the overwhelming urge to throttle me and/or flame me extensively.

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 08-20-2002 04:05 AM

To Catlady,
Thanks for the novel. I can't wait to read volume II.

To Jisahn,
Short answer (already written in Catlady's reply), all capitalized letters is the equivalent of yelling/shouting in web-based communication (e-mails, bulletin boards, chat rooms, etc.).

**damianip** · 08-20-2002 05:52 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
Apparently, my use of capitalization in the subject lines has irritated our gracious host, Craig, who finds it "annoying" and "rude". Oh, and he "doesn't like it."

I've never understood this phenomenon, and believe no one really cares, but allow me to explain myself...

Having a military background, as well as a highly, detail oriented career in office administration, subject lines are always in caps, and indicate professionalism.

So, I meant no harm in the virtual realm of fencing and sincerely offer my apology to any and all who acutally spend their time worrying over the typing strategies of others.

I came here to talk about fencing...<hr /></blockquote>However, you might endeavor to accept gentle correction a bit more contritely. People do indeed care, as the lack of hearing and visual cues we take for granted in normal conversation makes things like that (CAPS) important.

If you are to converse with others in this forum (or on the net in general), adhering to the rules will help keep things civil.

I don't think anyone thinks you meant harm. It's just that all caps has a definite significance and probably not one you were intending.

BTW, I have never seen subject lines in all caps, and they do not (in any place I've ever worked) indicate professionalism, but, rather, the contrary.

Paolo

**epeemike81** · 08-20-2002 06:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
However, you might endeavor to accept gentle correction a bit more contritely. People do indeed care, as the lack of hearing and visual cues we take for granted in normal conversation makes things like that (CAPS) important.

If you are to converse with others in this forum (or on the net in general), adhering to the rules will help keep things civil.

I don't think anyone thinks you meant harm. It's just that all caps has a definite significance and probably not one you were intending.

BTW, I have never seen subject lines in all caps, and they do not (in any place I've ever worked) indicate professionalism, but, rather, the contrary.

Paolo<hr /></blockquote>seconded.

-m

**MikeHarm** · 08-20-2002 09:55 AM

I find the posting of apologies rude, annoying, and I don't like it.

**135711** · 08-20-2002 03:49 PM

This very thing happened to me! I used CAPS a great deal to reply to things that my former instructor sent me in my e-mail. For example he would write:

Are you going to the park this sunday for fencing?
YES WILL YOU BE THERE?
okay,I'll see you on Sunday.
SHOULD I BRING MY SPARE JACKET?
it's up to you.
IS ____ COMING? DOES HE HAVE A WEAPON?
Yes

The above exchange seems rather conventional. The use of caps helps the reader see the dialog rather rapidly. Strangly, he took exception to this format, and began complaining that it was a Shouting mechanism. He made a very big deal about it, I was very embarrassed.

**Jisahn** · 08-20-2002 04:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Catlady:
I've seen it mentioned several times in several different placesIf you carried on all your conversations in a shout, people would find you annoying, same thing here<hr /></blockquote>Some of you are missing the point, and I challenge you, Catlady, to find these examples you've mentioned. I have NEVER (now I'm shouting) held a conversation in caps.

We're only talking about the f'n subject line.

And I can handle criticism, as well as polite correction, but Craig was not polite in his private email. That's what really cheesed me off.

**Kodiak Kid** · 08-20-2002 05:11 PM

Well then send your miss-directed ire at him and please leave us out of it. Besides, everybody else is right and you are wrong. "Caps" is shouting, subject line or signature line. And OBTW, calling someone names on a chatboard is rude and juvenile to say the least. If you have issues with someone because of what they have written, please take it on a sidebar. I too come here to discuss fencing.

**Jisahn** · 08-20-2002 05:20 PM

Wow, Kodiak ... I can see etiquette has lost its way with you as well.

In fact, I have brought my discontent to Craig, and I, at no time, have used 'name calling'. From where do you get this?

I simply do not appreciate being called 'rude', when this isn't true. I should expect people to conduct themselves as the fencers they claim to be.

**damianip** · 08-20-2002 06:32 PM

Jisahn,

I believe it was you who started this thread about a matter which we all would have been glad to let lie. Again, if you have issues with Craig, take them off-line in the form of e-mail or PM.

If you air them here under the thinly veiled disguised form of an apology, expecting to get support or agreement, you're going to be disappointed.

Your rather ironic "apology" seemed to be more of a justification and an attempt to have us support or validate your behavior than an apology.

Let's move on, put this behind us and get back to fencing.

Hey, that has really been a great WCh, hasn't it? Many, many upsets....

Paolo

[ 08-21-2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: damianip ]

Mo · 08-20-2002 08:40 PM

I simply do not appreciate being called 'rude', when this isn't true. I should expect people to conduct themselves as the fencers they claim to be.

Originally posted by Mo:[b]Why would a good sabrist ever even want to pick up a foil??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jishan,
I don't know ... so that he/she won't be an arrogant, narrow-minded, and rude elitist who evidently forgets the gentlemanly conduct among fencers of all weapons and origin?

Cannot have it both ways dear, this was very rude especially since the entire topic was saying one's weapon was superior.
Was your quote gentlemanly conduct??
At least you are not as much of a snothead as Zeroflash with his "**fu*king redneck" comment.
I am surprized Craig let that one pass, this is not fencing sucks.

Mo · 08-20-2002 08:50 PM

Jisahn says, "I simply do not appreciate being called 'rude', when this isn't true. I should expect people to conduct themselves as the fencers they claim to be."

That very nice Mo says, "Why would a good sabrist ever even want to pick up a foil??"

Jishan being being less than nice says,"I don't know ... so that he/she won't be an arrogant, narrow-minded, and rude elitist who evidently forgets the gentlemanly conduct among fencers of all weapons and origin?"

Now I say to Jisahn, Cannot have it both ways dear, this was very rude especially since the entire topic was saying one's weapon was superior.
Was your quote gentlemanly conduct??
At least you are not as much of a snothead as Zeroflash with his "**fu*king redneck" comment.
I am surprized Craig let that one pass, this is not fencing sucks.

**epeemike81** · 08-21-2002 05:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
Wow, Kodiak ... I can see etiquette has lost its way with you as well.<hr /></blockquote>First off, in an online forum, it is yelling, even in subject lines. secondly, though, in all the offices I have worked in, it has NEVER been considered professional to put subject lines in all caps.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In fact, I have brought my discontent to Craig, and I, at no time, have used 'name calling'. From where do you get this?<hr /></blockquote>no comment.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I simply do not appreciate being called 'rude', when this isn't true.<hr /></blockquote>In my experience, it HAS been true a number of times on this board. (not that I mind... I have always assumed that this rudeness was part of the debating/arguing that was going on, and took it in stride, and I think it was appropriate, especially in the discussion about which weapon is better, which is designed to inspire conflict)
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I should expect people to conduct themselves as the fencers they claim to be.<hr /></blockquote>okay, let me dispell your thoughts right now: fencing is NOT a gentlemen's sport! I do NOT hold myself or others to a more genteel standard simply because they fence. again, consistency would be nice! you are not more genteel than others, either, so don't expect us to be.

-m

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 08-21-2002 05:19 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MikeHarm:
I find the posting of apologies rude, annoying, and I don't like it.

<hr /></blockquote>I second this... and challenge everyone to a duel!

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-21-2002 05:42 AM

Okay, the bottom line is that all caps in subject line or conversation is considered shouting. Generally, I can look at something and figure that the person didn't mean to shout, but that doesn't mean that I am not offended in some small way. Example, while the online form system was temporarily down, I had people submit problems with their computer to my email address. One person put subject and content in all caps. I was immediately taken aback by the way the email was written, even though the content was perfectly friendly and informative.

Why did I have a problem with this email? Because whether you mean it or not, all caps is considered rude by the online community. We may not all agree with social conventions, but to avoid being ostricized, we should adhere to them. I don't think that Craig meant that you were rude, but that your style of writing is considered rude. That said, take it in strides and don't worry about it. Like other people have said, just let it die. Days from now, no one is going to say, "Oh that rude Jishan writes his subject lines in all caps" unless you make a big deal about it.

BTW, the only place I have seen all caps in the professional world is the TO, FROM, SUBJECT and DATE lines in a memo.

Now let me defend you, Jisahn. I have no clue why people have such a problem with the idea that fencing is gentlemenly or gentlewomanly. A little curtiousy goes a long way, especially in a world that is becomming void of it. Why not congradulate your opponent on that excellent shot he pulled out of nowhere. He worked hard and he deserved to be acknowledged. Fencing competitively and curtiously can happen at the same time; I've seen it and I've done it.

Why not smile and thank your opponent even when he defeated you. You may have lost the bout, but you learned to be a better fencer and hopefully a better person. Adam Adrian Crown said it well when he said that you should not be able to tell the outcome of a bout by the way two fencers shake each other's hands. The victor should not gloat at his vanquished opponent. The defeated should not angry or irritated at his conqueror. You can't say that this does not happen, just yesterday an epeeist was black carded for throwing a temper tantrum, and his mask for that matter.

**epeemike81** · 08-21-2002 06:38 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Now let me defend you, Jisahn. I have no clue why people have such a problem with the idea that fencing is gentlemenly or gentlewomanly. A little curtiousy goes a long way, especially in a world that is becomming void of it. Why not congradulate your opponent on that excellent shot he pulled out of nowhere. He worked hard and he deserved to be acknowledged. Fencing competitively and curtiously can happen at the same time; I've seen it and I've done it.

Why not smile and thank your opponent even when he defeated you. You may have lost the bout, but you learned to be a better fencer and hopefully a better person. Adam Adrian Crown said it well when he said that you should not be able to tell the outcome of a bout by the way two fencers shake each other's hands. The victor should not gloat at his vanquished opponent. The defeated should not angry or irritated at his conqueror. You can't say that this does not happen, just yesterday an epeeist was black carded for throwing a temper tantrum, and his mask for that matter.<hr /></blockquote>let me clarify: Fencing is not a "gentleman's sport". this does NOT mean that it is, or should be, full of assholes. yes, we do acknowledge nice touches. this reflects the friendly nature of the competitions we are in, not that it is a "gentleman's sport". if you were in a competition which MEANT something you would never acknowledge a touch. to do so would be to put yourself at a disadvantage! if the ref miscalls that, he very well may miscall one against you. If you are acknowledging, then you are creating an unfair advantage for your opponent (in ROW weapons). at low level comp., that is not as important, so we still acknowledge. As for at high level competition, I don't think Adam Crown's opinion is very relevant to high level modern fencing competition.

By the way, it should be noted that the concept of a gentleman's sport a) no longer exists (thankfully) and b) was originally a euphamism for an elitist sport. thus, we should be very glad that fencing is no longer a "gentleman's sport".

in terms of being polite, well, we should, to a point, be polite in all arenas of life. this does NOT mean there should never be criticism or even insults! yes there are insults which cross a line and should NOT be said, (the term "fu#king redneck" comes to mind), but friendly insults and jibes make these discussions interesting! let me make my position known right now:

You need not walk on eggshells with me. Feel free to hurl insults, as long as you don't mind friendly returns.

-m

[ 08-21-2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: epeemike81 ]

**darius** · 08-21-2002 07:10 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have no clue why people have such a problem with the idea that fencing is gentlemenly or gentlewomanly.<hr /></blockquote>Here's why I have a problem with it. English lesson time: the terms you use have a specific connotation derived from the word "genteel", which means "aristocratic."

Let's get this straight - in *EVERY* sport, you have a certain level of respect and cameraderie with your opponents/teammates. Fencing is no different.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Fencing competitively and curtiously can happen at the same time; I've seen it and I've done it.<hr /></blockquote>Holy crap, I can't wait to tell my coach, teammates , and friends! You've just changed my worldview!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Adam Adrian Crown said it well when he said that you should not be able to tell the outcome of a bout by the way two fencers shake each other's hands.<hr /></blockquote>I respect the good Maestro so much less for that statement, since he wasn't able to make a disparaging remark about electrical fencing in it.

darius

"I always thought Nat Goodhartz was a man!"
- Neil Lazar

**achilleus** · 08-21-2002 11:05 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
[QB][QUOTE]
Now let me defend you, Jisahn. I have no clue why people have such a problem with the idea that fencing is gentlemenly or gentlewomanly. A little curtiousy goes a long way, especially in a world that is becomming void of it. Why not congradulate your opponent on that excellent shot he pulled out of nowhere. He worked hard and he deserved to be acknowledged.[QB/QUOTE]

As a competitor, I know I worked hard, and I know I earned every single touch I score, I don't need an opponent to tell me how good I am. In fact, I respect the opponents who respect me as a dangerous adversary, and this means treating me as such. If an opponent tells me what a nice shot I made during a bout, I know I have an advantage.

After the bout, is a completely different matter.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
[QB][QUOTE]Why not smile and thank your opponent even when he defeated you. You may have lost the bout, but you learned to be a better fencer and hopefully a better person. Adam Adrian Crown said it well when he said that you should not be able to tell the outcome of a bout by the way two fencers shake each other's hands. The victor should not gloat at his vanquished opponent. The defeated should not angry or irritated at his conqueror. You can't say that this does not happen, just yesterday an epeeist was black carded for throwing a temper tantrum, and his mask for that matter. [QB/QUOTE]

Most times, people are angry with themselves, not their opponents.

But really, you seem to be supplying arguments for fencing not being gentlemenly. You argue that people don't behave the way you describe. Sure, a couple of old school coaches may write about how they think fencers should behave, but that doesn't make the sport gentlemenly.

[ 08-21-2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: achilleus ]

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-21-2002 11:49 AM

Idealisticly, fencing should be that way, but no it certainly is not.

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