attacking underside of hand in epee

[Twinkletoes]

Hi folks, very nice forum

My first post, a question.

In epee, if you attack the underside of the hand, how is your hand positioned?

Does the attacker supinate or pronate his hand as the arm extends to touch the underside of the opponent's hand?

Thx

Marc

[ReverseLunge]

I usually do it with a simple upward flick. Thumb at 12 o'clock.

[jetzm]

I usually have my thumb at 12 o'clock too, but I don't flick. I tend to only attack when they expose their wrist, rather than flicking behind the guard.

[ReverseLunge]

I usually have my thumb at 12 o'clock too, but I don't flick. I tend to only attack when they expose their wrist, rather than flicking behind the guard.

Well Its because I have one ofthe more whippy Uhlmann epee blades. Epee blades are much easier to flick up than to flick down. I wish I could use this move in foil but I can't since all the other guy has to do is lean back and make my flick up go short.

[Artisan]

Hi folks, very nice forum

In epee, if you attack the underside of the hand, how is your hand positioned?

Palm down. You'll find you have slightly more upward flexion to reach the required angle with the thumb at 9 o'clock than with it at 12. As a counterattack, it is accompanied by a slight squat made with half retreat. As an attack it is preceeded by a hard beat from below or in 6 to momentarily open the underside of the arm.

[ReverseLunge]

Palm down. You'll find you have slightly more upward flexion to reach the required angle with the thumb at 9 o'clock than with it at 12. As a counterattack, it is accompanied by a slight squat made with half retreat. As an attack it is preceeded by a hard beat from below or in 6 to momentarily open the underside of the arm.

Why would you do it palm down? I think you would lose accuracy that way. Lets say you are right handed and you want to hit the outer left side of your opponent hand or wrist then you would place your palm down and thumb in the 9 o'clock position. Atleast thats how I was taught. Besides when you want to hit the underside of the hand the "V" of the epee blade should always be pointing down at your target.

[Artisan]

Why would you do it palm down? I think you would lose accuracy that way. Lets say you are right handed and you want to hit the outer left side of your opponent hand or wrist then you would place your palm down and thumb in the 9 o'clock position. Atleast thats how I was taught. Besides when you want to hit the underside of the hand the "V" of the epee blade should always be pointing down at your target.

Question was about underside, not outside, and the direction of the v is irrelevant.

It is not intuitive, but it works. My coach teaches, I learn and seldom question as his knowledge and experience is vast. "Master's Kung Fu is superior to all others"
The palm down position is preferred for the dynamics afforded by rotating into an out of the position before and after, and what you intend to follow the attempt with, since it is usually the first of a multiple intention attack.

[ReverseLunge]

Question was about underside, not outside, and the direction of the v is irrelevant.

It is not intuitive, but it works. My coach teaches, I learn and seldom question as his knowledge and experience is vast. "Master's Kung Fu is superior to all others"
The palm down position is preferred for the dynamics afforded by rotating into an out of the position before and after, and what you intend to follow the attempt with, since it is usually the first of a multiple intention attack.

If it works it works. I'll try it out the next time i fence epee. Thanks.

[jetzm]

That does sound rather counter intuitive though. I do rotate my wrist to attack palm down if i carry it past the wrist to get to the flank, but that's mainly to get my blade to bend outward.

[Schiavona]

Palm down. You'll find you have slightly more upward flexion to reach the required angle with the thumb at 9 o'clock than with it at 12. As a counterattack, it is accompanied by a slight squat made with half retreat. As an attack it is preceeded by a hard beat from below or in 6 to momentarily open the underside of the arm.

Counter intuitive?? This is, dare I say it, a classic epee under the guard attack. Long ago, something like this was called a 'boar's head' thrust. Back when fencing had cool names for moves, like Kung Fu does.

Hey! Let's start a trend! Name common fencing actions! Ie, the 'death walk' aka a marching attack and so on.

[Zilverzmurfen]

I usually have my thumb at 12 o'clock too, but I don't flick. I tend to only attack when they expose their wrist, rather than flicking behind the guard.

Agree.

*hum-de-dum...lengthening message...*

[rtran]

Palm down. You'll find you have slightly more upward flexion to reach the required angle with the thumb at 9 o'clock than with it at 12. As a counterattack, it is accompanied by a slight squat made with half retreat. As an attack it is preceeded by a hard beat from below or in 6 to momentarily open the underside of the arm.

I occasionally do it both ways. With your palm down it is much easier to break your wrist to get the angulation. I do this sometimes if I notice my epee has a curve near the tip. However on very quick actions, it is sometimes better to leave your hand vertical as rotating the wrist very quickly for a underhand pick can sometimes throw your point off target. I'm currently practicing flicking upwards for these underhand touches but am so far pretty unsuccessful at it.

[blue_falcon]

Palm down. You'll find you have slightly more upward flexion to reach the required angle with the thumb at 9 o'clock than with it at 12. As a counterattack, it is accompanied by a slight squat made with half retreat. As an attack it is preceeded by a hard beat from below or in 6 to momentarily open the underside of the arm.

Of course, if you're a lefty (like me), you would have been confused by that post! But I finally figured it out. For a lefty, the palm down would have the thumb at the 3 o'clock position. The palm up (which I do use) would have the thumb in the 9 o'clock position. And if you're using one of those grips (like a Belgian) with a large thingy (sorry -- can't remember the name!) over your wrist, you'd definitely want the palm down position.

I actually use the palm up position and, if I miss, I rotate my hand for a follow-up attack to either the torso or (since it's usually closer) the thigh.

As can be imagined, this underhand attack requires a fair amount of point control and accuracy!

[DrT]

I tend to do this move palm-down too. One thing I find particularly difficult, however, is preceeding this with an upward beat. I find to get any kind of decent point control I need to pronate before doing the beat. If I try beat-(turn the hand)-hit under wrist I never get anywhere near. Maybe I just need practice.

(Maybe??)

[jetzm]

A good point. If I precede the attack with an upward beat, I actually do turn my hand palm down and keep it that way during the entire attack, even though I said I usually keep my thumb at 12 0'clock. I don't tend to like to do upward beats though, because it tends to bring my point far off target. Against another right handed fencer, I like to begin with an attack to the inside line, disengage to exaggerated high outside, then disengage to the wrist. It's essentially a one-two that ends on the underside of the wrist. The exaggerated high outside attack is an attempt to get them to raise the hand during their parry. It doesn't always work, but it's nice when it does.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Palm down. You'll find you have slightly more upward flexion to reach the required angle with the thumb at 9 o'clock than with it at 12. As a counterattack, it is accompanied by a slight squat made with half retreat. As an attack it is preceeded by a hard beat from below or in 6 to momentarily open the underside of the arm.

This is accurate technique. I do it and it works. HOWEVER, it takes a LOT of time (at least it did for me) to develop the hand/finger strength and accuracy to do it. It is VERY effective. You begin with the hand in the proper en guarde stance, the fingers and blade rotate counter clockwise (for righties, clockwise for lefties...I'm a lefty) and the palm is then down and you flick the wrist upward, extending the arm at the point of breaking/flicking the wrist upward so the elbow is no longer bent. The tip is higher than wrist/hand. It's almost like a "V." Meaning, the arm is going down vertically and the blade is going up vertically. I suck at explaining it, sorry.

Another way to sneak this undertouch in is to beat the blade upward and then do this action immediately afterward.

[Victor]

My best results: thumb at 12 o'clock or maybe 1-ish.
Delightful when followed with a second intention attack to the upper side of the arm, after you get the opponent to flinch.

[Army Fencer]

(lefty)

I use both. If I go 12 o'clock, I have to keep my hand very low. I feel more vulnerable doing it this way.

When I pronate my hand, I put my thumb at about 2 o'clock, and bring it a little to the four. That gives a little more of an angulation. (Probably only necessary for a lefty). I think I'm more successful and get hit less often when I pronate.

I go straight for the touch whether I attack or counterattack. I don't mess with the beat. But a well placed counterattack is infinitely more beautiful.

I've tried the undersided flick and I've seen it done very well (first time I saw it was at a World Cup in Paris), but I haven't been very successful with it yet.

[swordsen]

I have used most of the methods talked about above at various times. but I generally just prefer to do a straight shot with no modification to how I hold my hand directly at the bottom edge of the bell. It will skip right into the wrist. then when they start lowering the bell to block I move to the top. simple I know know but I like the KISS plan.

[BrianH]

During my career, I asked several masters about this...pronate or supinate, or somewhere in between? Some preferred one position, others the opposite.

I decided it partly depended on the flexibility of the wrist, the strength of the hand, and point control. The one thing to remember is to angulate your wrist, not bend your elbow, lest your biceps tendon be skewered by a counter action. I'm sure it has happened to all epee fencers a time or two.

I have sometimes had success feinting to the top of the forearm, the opponent's response being to raise their hand, which exposes the underside to attack. They quickly learn: if it seems to be a trick, it probably is.

If all else fails, remise to the thigh.

Good luck.