Lost in Translation?

[rvergara]

Reading the spanish translation of the FIE rulebook, i came across the well discussed t.56 article:

El ataque compuesto (rf. t.8) está correctamente ejecutado, cuando extendiendo el brazo en la presentación de la primera finta, la punta amenaza una superficie válida sin encoger el brazo durante la ejecución de los movimientos sucesivos al ataque y la puesta en marcha del fondo o la flecha.

In the spanish version there is no room for interpretation, it states clearly that the arm must be extended during the entire action.

I don't know about the french version, but maybe there is the reason for all the different interpretations.

P.S.: This thread is not intended to revive the "it should be extended" "no, it shouldn't!" discussion, just to point the difference in the rulebooks.

[DHCJr]

To be specific your quoute is T.56.2 which deals with compound attacks only.

Here is the French version:

L’attaque composée (Cf. t.8) est correctement exécutée quand le bras s’allongeant dans la presentation de la premiè feinte, la pointe menace la surface valable sans raccourcir le bras pendant l’exécution des mouvements successifs de l’attaque et le déclenchement de la fente ou de la fléche.

And the English version:

The compound attack (cf. t.8) is correctly executed when the arm is extending in the presentation of the first feint, with the point threatening the valid target, and the arm is not bent between the successive actions of the attack and the initiation of the lunge or the fleche.

I am no language expert like Dan DeChaine, but I can sometimes muddle through. It does look like they say the same thing. The first part for all three appear to say 'Extending' before the first feint. The second part says it is not bent between actions.

The question is what is bent? Is it an adjective or a verb. If it is an adjective, then the arm must be straight. But what if it is a verb, then the arm could be moving forward (unbending) or held still (bent - adjective).

As everyone knows the T rules are my weakest area, but I wanted to throw out the other languages I have to give some feedback.

[The0ne]

that reading of the rule is not obsolete compared to how the calls are made at FIE competitions now. . . But the main thing is as Donald pointed out, bent as an adjective, or as a verb. . .

[rvergara]

The issue is mainly here:

Spanish:
... sin recoger el brazo ...

French:
... sans raccourcir le bras ...

English:
... the arm is not bent ...

It is true that the english version depends on whether the word bent is considered a verb or an adjective, but the other languages don't have that problem, so the english version should be interpreted as the other two.

[mrbiggs]

French:
... sans raccourcir le bras ...

The literal translation, as far as I know, is "without bending the arm (during the successive movements)" or even more literally "without abbreviating the arm" or "without shortening the arm". It's a verb. You may not bend your arm during an attack.

I'd also like to point out that the point must "menace" the viable surface area. I think that's an awesome way of putting it.

[Inquartata]

"Cuando extendiendo" would translate to "when extending", right? One cannot have a bent arm when extendED fully, so "sin recoger" cannot be modifying a statement that the arm has to be fully extended before the attack is recognizeable as such. This IMO leaves only the commonly accepted interpretation: the arm must be extendING, without being withdrawn or "pumped" along the way.

[dunastor]

Why are we having a discussion about the difference between extended and extending?

(when everybody knows it should be extending )

[mrbiggs]

Here is the French version:

L’attaque composée (Cf. t.8) est correctement exécutée quand le bras s’allongeant dans la presentation de la premiè feinte, la pointe menace la surface valable sans raccourcir le bras pendant l’exécution des mouvements successifs de l’attaque et le déclenchement de la fente ou de la fléche.

This is:

The compund attack is correctly exececuted when the arm is lengthened in the presentation of the first feint, and the point threatens the viable target area without shortening the arm during the execution of successive movements and the release (beginning) of the lunge or of the fleche.

Well, I thought that was pretty specific, but now that I look at it, the French terms are pretty general. It says that the arm must "s'allongeant" during the first feint, which translated literally means "be lengthened (itself)" This could be idiomatic and mean extended completely, but I didn't want to stray into an interpretation.
The important part is that it says that the arm cannot be shortened (pulled back) during successive actions.

[rvergara]

"Cuando extendiendo" would translate to "when extending", right? One cannot have a bent arm when extendED fully, so "sin recoger" cannot be modifying a statement that the arm has to be fully extended before the attack is recognizeable as such. This IMO leaves only the commonly accepted interpretation: the arm must be extendING, without being withdrawn or "pumped" along the way.

Exactly my point, in spanish there is no room for interpretation.

[dunastor]

Translation is a form of interpretation.

[mrbiggs]

True, but in rules, a more literal translation is helpful, especially when said rules are so strange that it takes an entire fencing forum 10 pages to argue through basic calls, until they finally agree to disagree.

[Inquartata]

rules are so strange that it takes an entire fencing forum 10 pages to argue through basic calls, until they finally agree to disagree.

At least for the nonce. I can almost guarantee you there'll be a virtually identical argument on the same subject in a month or two.

[veeco]

This is:

The compund attack is correctly exececuted when the arm is lengthened in the presentation of the first feint, and the point threatens the viable target area without shortening the arm during the execution of successive movements and the release (beginning) of the lunge or of the fleche.

Well, I thought that was pretty specific, but now that I look at it, the French terms are pretty general. It says that the arm must "s'allongeant" during the first feint, which translated literally means "be lengthened (itself)" This could be idiomatic and mean extended completely, but I didn't want to stray into an interpretation.
The important part is that it says that the arm cannot be shortened (pulled back) during successive actions.

s'allongeant is the gerondive form of the verb s'allonger, which implies that the extension of the arm takes place during the first action, not that it is extended completely, and that it doesn't happen immediately, but can take a longer time to be completed. Also note that it states that the arm should not shorten during the successive movements. Therefore it means that the extension should be continuous.

I think that the English translation is closer to the French version than the Spanish one.