The big issues

[oiuyt]

I'm not aware of any support that collegiate clubs get that's different than non-collegiate USFA clubs. Well, unless you count the American Fencing article about Club Nationals (and the upcoming article about this past year's event).

Armory manuals already exist. The Volkman book (which is also an appendix to Magnum Libre d'Escrime) is one example. UMass owns at least 1 and I think 2 other armoring manuals from other sources of roughly comparable quality/completeness. I had listed it not as something I thought the USFA should provide, but rather as an example of the type of thing that might make such lists, in this case an example of the type of resource which the community could point the requester to an already existant resource.

Will- Alan Blakeburough attempted a sort of franchise system with the KOS (Knights of Siena) chain in the Albany area (separate from the KOS club(s?) where he is now in Charlotte). I wasn't yet in the area when he left and the clubs all splintered off (LOTS more backstory to that one, but as I wasn't around for it I'm not the best source). If you talk to the people from that area about 8ish years ago you'll likely get a number of strong opinions about how it worked, what was good, and what the problems were. As well as a number of strong opinions about Alan.

Given how specialized fencing coaching knowledge is and the fairly long training curve, I don't really see franchised fencing clubs as a particularly easy project (*understatement alert*). Seems like a coach who's training other coaches could start throwing off satellite clubs and build an associated branded system that way, but doing that should result in sustainable growth that could easily be self-funded. No need for outside VC support in the first place. The type of hypergrowth that VCs require is a particularly poor fit for something like fencing clubs IMO.

-B :)

[Army Fencer]

I'm not aware of any support that collegiate clubs get that's different than non-collegiate USFA clubs. Well, unless you count the American Fencing article about Club Nationals (and the upcoming article about this past year's event).

I'm looking forward to that article. Who wrote it?

[oiuyt]

Jon Moss.

Expect it in the fall issue.

-B :)

[Artisan]

Why not start a fencing club/salle franchise? A McDonalds of the fencing world if you will.

1. Because the margin of profit is not there. (ask any commecial club owner)

2. More importantly, despite McDonalds "hamberger U" it still takes relatively little training to put a minimum wage employee behind the counter at a McD's, while to train a coach takes years - only to then provide a slightly better level of income.

3. Fencing does not directly translate into the same franchise model that you see of so many Strip-Mall Martial Arts Schools, primarily because of the costly one-to-one nature of instruction beyond the intermediat level. Anyone with an knowledge of advanced martial arts will tell you that most of the franchised martial arts schools have a greatly "dumbed-down" curriculum to appease the demand and meet the level of interest for what is essentially after school day-care for many. I don't think US fencing would benefit from a such a dumbed-down appoach.


What would make a difference was if USFA had govenment and corporate money with which to fund fencers, fencing and their development. As it is now, elite juniors go to college to continue to fence, where they grind out a lot of competition during the short season at moderate levels of quality, juggling the academic demands with training - with little or no time to go to international events where the high quality is. Then by graduation many are either burnt out on fencing or have limited abilities to pursue fencing careers because they are now saddled with loans and the need to pursue a moneymaking livelihood. Those that do make a mark at an international level either have a lot of private financial support or very forgiving employers who can tolerate the frequent absences required by international competition - or both. Sure Home Depot, UPS and other corporations are starting to develop programs, but you have to already be at an elite level to get their assistance - how do you bridge the gap to get there in the first place?

In many western european countries, the elite fencers are often supported by govenment "jobs" which are essentially stipends that permit a full time training schedule with little or no actual "job" requirements. In Germany many top athletes hold jobs in companies who support the "employees" with flexible schedules and additional vacation time. France has mandatory one month of vacation time, allowing much more time off for athletes who work full time to pursue their sport. Italy puts its top athletes into military or police jobs, where their responsibilities are to train at their sport. And in what were the eastern european countries, Being an athelete was a job like any other - funded by the state.

---warning: thread drift---
What I would like to see in the US - and it would benefit not only athletes, but have profound inpacts on American society at almost every level - is a Manditory Public Service - call it what you will. Everyone spends a period of time (12-24 mos.) between high school and college if they choose to go to college in service to the country. It could be military, it could be public service in any number of applications (i.e. Habitat for Humanity, Peace Corps, etc.) or in Athletics, etc. Yes it would cost taxpayer money, but we've spent a lot more in often way less productive ways. It would also provide valuable exposure to the world for young adults before college outside of the "career track" to figure out what they want to do with their lives before jumping onto the treadmill of the ratrace. It would create an opportunity for talented atheletes in all sports to develop and excel at international levels, it would provide a massive labor pool for the government, military, and social and humanitarian services to strengthen the foundations of our society.

- oh yeah... and since I'm apt to get flamed for this "radical socialist" idea - I don't thnk a flat tax would be such a bad thing either - but thats another thread altogether

[fluidfencer]

Quick reply to two comments:

Our club is successful financially but, after paying for quality coaches, there would not be enough profit generated to make a successful franchise. Someone made reference to karate... similar economics. What I have seen often in both sports is someone who rents a space that's too expensive, thinking that the number of students will grow to the point of making it profitable. The chances of that are very slim. The successful clubs have grown carefully. Ours was fairly quick at five years, but we were/are still cautious. Europe is a completely different model (as was mentioned above)... so is China, as one of the few remaining communist countries.

The last post mentioned something about mandatory service. While it is off this thread, I thought I would mention that I work for a liberal arts college that has a curriculum that requires service time. It has a history of service anyway, but they intergrated it into the curriculum in a way that made a better learning experience for the students. I am sure we are not the only college doing something like that.

[wflaschka]

To my knowledge, the fencing club "franchise" concept has arisen at least once, prior to and independent of this thread. If karate clubs can franchise, surely there can be some overlap in methodology for fencing salles.

The problems facing the formation of any franchise are money, workforce and cluelessness. With McDonalds, the money is self-evident; and investment will pay a return, and so investors are willing to be convinced. With workforce, McDonalds (and Karate dojos) have a big preexisting base of people with the required skills -- this is more difficult for fencing. Cluelessness -- there is an astounding amount of understanding required to form a fencing club, from non-profit rules and benefits, to cash flow, billing, recruitment, promotion, fixing common problems, building codes, insurance &etc. The actual fencing is the least of it.

A fencing salle franchising enterprise would not be able to invest money in new salles, but there could certainly be a Knowledge Base available to franchisees. This Knowledge Base (a set of binders) could reduce the complexity of creating and maintaining a fencing salle simply by sharing information. Perhaps it would get 50-80% easier to start a salle, with all the questions and gotchas enumerated and answered before they arise.

In the future, if the enterprise had a lot of franchises, it could weild significant power in the fencing world. It could negotiate preferential rates for club equipment or starter sets with equipment suppliers. It could provide a unified website hosting environment, or enterprise software for running clubs and gathering results (deriving best-practice methods). It could provide a library of promotional tools and step-by-step money-generating plans. All of this could be available to franchisees for an annual "rent" and compliance with the enterprise's rules.

There was a post by swordmaster about starting a club. It went, "First, get a $30k grant..." The last few weekends I've been surfing government websites looking for grant opportunities. The seas are rough, and I'm clueless. Most efforts that subsist off grants have their own support network -- i.e., the CDC and universities have tools that are so vast, the entities offering the grants post information to them. If I could pay $100 for a franchise membership, which included a 20 page list of grant opportunities and instructions, I'd be very happy.

The last issue of AmFencing had 2 articles -- how/whether to incorporate the club as a non-profit entity, and how an Oregon salle got funding (bingo games). This is a great start. I also have contact info for two people who have taken the big step of creating and running a fencing salle. When I have a clueful set of questions I'll be asking them for advice.

Great post, Oiuyot! I've never seen/heard of the CD you mentioned. Is it listed on the USFA website?

The information on the CD is very useful. If the USFA isn't using its website to disseminate the information, I'd recommend trying to get a copy of the CD.

Clubs != Profit -- one never knows. If there were a franchising organization in place to guide club owners, the money might get good.

[oiuyt]

I hadn't really considered that martial arts studios SHOULD face the same problems that we do (highly trained instructors can't be created in a matter of weeks) but some of them manage to use a mass-market chain-like approach. Not saying that the GOOD athletes come out of these dojos, but clearly the mechanics of building a chain and making a profit are there. Should therefore be doable for fencing as well (whether or not it's desireable is a separate question).

I still think that it's more likely to be successful with a club that just keeps spawning satellite clubs with the equivalent of assistant coaches. Not really a franchise system but rather a branch office paradigm. Mmm, things to think about. What would go into a good franchise packet? Most of that material should be extremely useful to existing clubs as well.

-B :)

[tiger fencer]

I do think the usfa/foc can do a better job of the coaches college and refereeing clinic. The when and the where seems sporadic.

One thing that I see as hindering the growth of the sport, is the lack of quality competitions on the local/regional scale. Once one rises to doing well at this level the next level to jump to is the national/NAC level. This is quite a jump in energy/cost/resources. And many people aren't willing or unable to do it. To add travel/entry fee expenses to training/equipment is quite a jump.

More people are willing to go to one national event like Summer Nationals because its perhaps has more meaning b/c of local qualifying routes. You represent more than yourself, you rep. your club, division, region.

If you don't switch to NACs and stay local you tend to platuea skill wise and eventually drop out of the competitive scene. There are few people in my area that fence competitively for 4 or 5 years. One reason is that there are too many low quality competitions. One reason you rise to the top is that the top people when you started are gone. To add to the frustration is that the best people fencers in the area only go to NACs.

Now I'm not saying that the usfa should come in and set up tournaments for each region, i think that would fail. But I do see that two different worlds have kind of developed between the national circuit and local levels. Wouldn't it be better to have a continuum between the two worlds. So a fencer can choose their involvement in the sport?

If only there were more quality tournaments, it might keep local competitive fencers' interest longer, which would translate into them staying in the sport longer. It might also attract the best fencers in the area, giving them a local tournament to test their skills. However there does seem to be a "reserve energy for NACs" sentiment for that crowd.

[CarlKnoch]

Quick reply to two comments:

Our club is successful financially but, after paying for quality coaches, there would not be enough profit generated to make a successful franchise. Someone made reference to karate... similar economics. What I have seen often in both sports is someone who rents a space that's too expensive, thinking that the number of students will grow to the point of making it profitable. The chances of that are very slim. The successful clubs have grown carefully. Ours was fairly quick at five years, but we were/are still cautious. Europe is a completely different model (as was mentioned above)... so is China, as one of the few remaining communist countries.

The last post mentioned something about mandatory service. While it is off this thread, I thought I would mention that I work for a liberal arts college that has a curriculum that requires service time. It has a history of service anyway, but they intergrated it into the curriculum in a way that made a better learning experience for the students. I am sure we are not the only college doing something like that.

The USFA is a Non Profit Organization. That means that a lot of people have to go it alone in their local clubs due to lack of funding from the national level. That's the norm for amatuer sports. However if you have ANY division events during the year, they are being supported financially by the USFA. The Divisions are helping the local clubs by holding tourneys through the year to allow people to practice their sport in competition.

Check any little league or AYSO program across the nation and ask them how much support they get from a national agency that heads them up. They are hard working volunteers that are getting things done because they have a love for the sport they are involved in.

The USFA and your Division aren't in existence to run your club for you, or to support you financially. The things that happen in the different Divisions of the USFA happen because of volunteers who have the desire to see fencing spread and get better in their back yard. Sounds like you have that desire, it's just a matter of realizing that it's up to you to see it through.

Of course that's just my opinion.

[Artisan]

The USFA is a Non Profit Organization. ....(snip)
The USFA and your Division aren't in existence to run your club for you, or to support you financially. The things that happen in the different Divisions of the USFA happen because of volunteers who have the desire to see fencing spread and get better in their back yard. Sounds like you have that desire, it's just a matter of realizing that it's up to you to see it through.
Of course that's just my opinion.

But the USFA is there to collect the membership fees that it requires all clubs and club members to have, and a portion of proceeds that a club generates with local tournament fees get kicked upstairs as well. If you read the USFA bylaws and operations manual, you might agree with me that USFA's regional structure and regulations look very "franchise - like" if not outright monopolistic. As a USFA member, you are not allowed to fence in non-sanctioned events, as a club you also would need USFA permission to hold unsanctioned events. Essentially, if there is amature competitive fencing going on in the US, then USFA has made sure they have a piece of it. (SCA excluded). I'm not saying this is good or bad, but if you structure an organization so that there can be no competitive entities, then there should be some responsibility and effort (and I believe there is) made to make the organization top to bottom healthy, functional - and in the case of club operations which are the base of the pyramid, give them the best chance at being succesful by assisting with resources such as coach training, insurance, marketing materials, publishing shared collective wisdom as Wflaschka has suggested, and since they've agreed to a USFA VISA card, why not make a financial deal to provide low-interest capital to people and clubs who can help develop the sport.

Unfortunately, as a non-profit that relies on a small annual budget and lots of volunteer labor, there are bound to be organizational inefficiencies at the nationl level, and lots of "survival of the fittest" at the local levels.

[oiuyt]

I do think the usfa/foc can do a better job of the coaches college and refereeing clinic. The when and the where seems sporadic.

Not sure you can paint both of these with that same brush. It what sense is coaches college sporadic in location or time? It's always held in the same place, the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. It's always held at the same time, late July and early August. Every fourth year it has to be cancelled as the OTC is booked solid for its primary purpose, Olympic training. This is known in advance.

The USFA routinely puts on the referee clinic at summer nationals twice, each time as a two-part series, once at the beginning and again at the end of summer nationals. There are a number of qualified clinic givers that are free to plan either scheduled clinics or do things on an as-demand-warrants basis (both of which happen in my area, which, granted, is atypical).

The USFA offers (and subsidizes) coaching clinics around the country based on requests from a local organizer. The USFA doesn't advertise this service as well as one might hope (I assume due to it being somewhat limited and widespread notice might very well result in too many requests), but they are available and can be arranged. I participated in one in my area a season or two ago.

One thing that I see as hindering the growth of the sport, is the lack of quality competitions on the local/regional scale. Once one rises to doing well at this level the next level to jump to is the national/NAC level. This is quite a jump in energy/cost/resources. And many people aren't willing or unable to do it. To add travel/entry fee expenses to training/equipment is quite a jump.

And this is why we need a regional competition system set up. Which is happening with help from the national office with the RYC events. And is happening at the senior level with the regional/sectional circuits. The senior circuits have been set up for a while in many parts of the country. I see these circuits growing, additional circuits coming into existance, and they will eventually provide a beautiful intermediate layer between local and national competition. Even the national level is tiered with division I, and II/III (not to mention all of the various age-group competitions). Okay, flying to a II/III might cost just as much as flying to a I, but it's an intermediate level of competition.

But the USFA is there to collect the membership fees that it requires all clubs and club members to have, and a portion of proceeds that a club generates with local tournament fees get kicked upstairs as well.

Uhm, actually that's just not true. Local tournament fees do NOT go to the national office. The USFA at the national level sends money down to the divisions and sections ($3/year to each division for each member of the division, $1/year to each section for each member of the section).

Unless you're calling "upstairs" your local division, in which case the rules vary dramatically from division to division. Just in the divisions that surround me I have examples of a division where the division runs the events and gets ALL money generated, a division that runs all events and pays the host club a fee for each entry, a division where the clubs run all the events and pay the division a "head tax" for each entry (what it sounds like your' describing), a division where the clubs run all the events and keep ALL the money, and likely at least one division that's some other variant or hybrid of the above. And I'm only counting divisions that are within a 2-3 hour drive and at most a bordering state of where I live. There are LOTS of ways to organize financials of local tournaments and it's the local people that decide. Don't blame the USFA for what people local to you have decided is best in your area.

why not make a financial deal to provide low-interest capital to people and clubs who can help develop the sport.

That would likely be way more costly than the USFA could afford. The USFA DOES offer grant programs to clubs both for subsidized equipment purchases and for entry fee and membership waivers which the club can then use as it sees fit (presumably in line with the grant request). Low interest loans is NOT a business that I'd like to see the USFA getting into. Everything else on your list I believe the USFA is already doing.

I think CarlKnock makes a good point with his Little League reference. I played LL for a year. Don't really remember much about it. I'm guessing that my league/team didn't see any money coming from the national office (and likely sent money in that direction). If the local team had been "*Cityname* Youth Baseball League" I'm sure it wouldn't have made a bit of difference to me. At least I see a fair amount of support and direction coming from the national level in fencing.

-B :)

[tiger fencer]

Oiuyt
Not sure you can paint both of these with that same brush. It what sense is coaches college sporadic in location or time? It's always held in the same place, the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. It's always held at the same time, late July and early August. Every fourth year it has to be cancelled as the OTC is booked solid for its primary purpose, Olympic training. This is known in advance.

The USFA routinely puts on the referee clinic at summer nationals twice, each time as a two-part series, once at the beginning and again at the end of summer nationals. There are a number of qualified clinic givers that are free to plan either scheduled clinics or do things on an as-demand-warrants basis (both of which happen in my area, which, granted, is atypical).

tiger fencer
Yes this is what I was referring to. Wish time and place were a little more regular. Too bad these can't be attached to a tournament, but these are two day events. Maybe they could desgin an "After tournament coarse" that lasts a few hours. Not as good but more people would do it I bet.


The USFA offers (and subsidizes) coaching clinics around the country based on requests from a local organizer. The USFA doesn't advertise this service as well as one might hope (I assume due to it being somewhat limited and widespread notice might very well result in too many requests), but they are available and can be arranged. I participated in one in my area a season or two ago.

These are very good clinics, even to people that don't coach per se but for those that might help out around the club.


And this is why we need a regional competition system set up. Which is happening with help from the national office with the RYC events. And is happening at the senior level with the regional/sectional circuits. The senior circuits have been set up for a while in many parts of the country. I see these circuits growing, additional circuits coming into existance, and they will eventually provide a beautiful intermediate layer between local and national competition. Even the national level is tiered with division I, and II/III (not to mention all of the various age-group competitions). Okay, flying to a II/III might cost just as much as flying to a I, but it's an intermediate level of competition.

Hopefully these will develop, giving fencers in all areas a more efficient, less costly way of pursuing the sport while giving them an opprotunity to fence at a higher level. And hopefullly the stigma of "if its not a NAC its not worth going to" will lessen. Granted some areas of the country don't seem to have this problem.

At least I see a fair amount of support and direction coming from the national level in fencing.

Just trying to point out ways the USFA and US fencing at all levels can improve.