Neuvieme ?? Really???

[Jeff Harman]

So I'm brushing up on my esoteric fencing terms and run across this one. Neuvieme. Says it's Parry #9. I always thought Parry #9 was to be like Sir Robin and "Run away, Run away!" It also says the blade is behind the back....? When was the last time anybody ever pulled that off with a clean riposte? Being from Missouri, I guess you'd have to "Show me". Maybe Nick Evangilista is out there somewhere and could post a picture of what it would look like.
I realize I'm exposing my ignorance here but, in the interest of a little education, it's a cheap price.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Harman (edited 05-25-2001).]

[damianip]

Where did you run across this one?

I've always felt that retreat was the "ninth" parry.

Paolo

[Shadow Fencer]

There's a reference to "parry nine" in Volkmann's book, Magnum Libre d'Escrime (The Big Book of Fencing) The parry is a raised on-guard to the height of the ear and the defender must time the parry with the anticipated arrival of the attack.

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I live to fence and fence to live!!

[neevel]

Was this a sabre parry? There is an old sabre parry that winds up with the forearm positioned straight up and the blade dropped over to the outside so that it's pointing perpendicularly downwards. Alfred Hutton called it "high octave", and depending on how the shoulder is turned it could place the blade behind the back. It was kind of an oddball parry even in Hutton's day, and using it in modern sabre would likely be tantamount to giving your opponent a free touch to your forearm. There is an online PDF copy of Hutton's Cold Steel out on the net somewhere which includes an illustration of the parry.

You're not going to find a universal definition of 'parry nine'-- it's sort of a catchall term that different folks have applied to various positions that don't quite fall into one of the "standard eight", but which they feel merit a separate explaination.

-Dave

[aussie]

Yes,

it is a sabre parry used for the passing of a fleche, in a failed hit rarely used but effective for the right of reply in the opposing fencers attempted hit before the fleche fencer has passed of the side of the strip. Its a classical sabre move it has its place in modern sabre but must be effective in its completion, very few can do it effectively, but once mastered a very effective defence after a fleche attack that has failed.

[Jeff Harman]

Here's the definition according to the glossary of terms: "Neuvieme - parry # 9; blade behind the back, pointing down; alternatively, similar to elevated sixte.

Don't know if it's sabre or not but I'm pretty darn sure I wont be trying it at epee!!
-Aussie- let me see if I have this straight; Fencer "A" the flecher misses, goes past Fencer "B", the Flechee, and Fencer "B" uses this parry # 9 to take the right of way and then riposte (all of this behind the back) as Fencer "A" passes... is that the idea? Whew! I'm impressed!
Found this in a glossary at www.leeds.ac.uk/union/sports/fencing/gloss.html

[Gav]

Yep I've heard this before. My ex-flatmate used to talk about it (along with the reverse lunge). He's into historical stuff so he had a lot of old books lying around. I believe that Eric Roberts does it in "By the Sword". Check out the scene where he's practising.

[The Bayer Hunter]

Parry 9 does not exist. It is just a figment of your imagination. Please, forget parry 9, and never think of it again. That is the best advice I can give you.

[Gav]

good point BH, but as this is a discussion on an obscure term I don't think anyone will start using it anytime soon.

[edew]

In the mid-80's, a newcoming popular attack (in the lefty-righty situation) was a strong bind in six to hit the opponent in the flank. It may have been popular elsewhere, but I wouldn't know.

Anyway, the effective defense against that was the yielding parry which effectively puts your blade with the bell guard somewhere around your ear and the tip pointing straight down, and the length of the blade just a bit behind your body. The riposte comes by passing the blade almost behind your head and come around the other side to hit the chest. Don't know if that was ever called the "nine-parry", but it worked pretty well.

[Cutter]

It is my understanding that the saber parry you describe is Parry 8 not nine. I have never heard of a 9th parry in saber.

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Cutter
"It's just a flesh wound."

[HilandDoug]

If you look in any mounted swordsman treatise, you should find a "behind the back" parry shown, and referred to as "9". Mr. Angelo's book has it in the chart in back, but I don't have it at my desk here at work for reference.

[HilandDoug]

Jeff, you've got the wrong fencer doing the 9. You fleche at me, I parry and riposte as you run past, parrying 9 to protect your back as you pass.

[Jeff Harman]

Doug - Ah-HA! makes sense now! Don't think my elbow is quite up to that one yet but I'll try it in slow motion (just like my fleches, HA!).

Thanks.

[Ron Antrim]

If I'm reading this thread right, we are talking about using this (parry nine) in a fleche attack in sabre. I seem to remember somewhere in the rules for sabre that you are not allowed to cross the back foot over in an advance, and that the fleche was removed as a legal move in sabre, so... if it exsists at all it's not a sabre move. There is also the issue of exposing the back of the head to the opponet in this move if you stayed in bounds. You might just get carded,and look silly too.

[Jeff Harman]

Well, I know I'd look silly doing it... But I don't think it was ever determined which weapon was being used. Seems like foil would be the only -so called- practical application for this if it's illegal to fleche in sabre. probably wouldn't have time/opportunity to pull it off with a flunge.

[aussie]

Hi Jeff,

sorry for not replying sooner, a good discussion though.

My discussion of terms for sabre 9 parry, is as corrected by Hilanddoug, a protection of the back for the passing fencer, sorry about the confusion.

Yes you are not allowed to cross the feet on the strip in sabre, but you can still fleche as long as you step off the strip and do not cross your feet.
Not often done and used more for epee.

the strip for sabre used to be longer than todays length, and allowed more movement on the strip for attacks. thus the use of a parry to protect the back on passing the opponent.

The KISS principle was not working for me that day.